Priming and Painting Pocher Question

[ChrisLBren]

Hey There,

I'm about to prime and paint my Alfa Monza model. A few questions. Any advice is appreciated.

1. What grade sandpaper are most of you finishing parts with before application of primer ?

2. Most modelers are using gray primer then sanding for imperfections followed by a color coat when primer coat is perfect. Ive heard that flat paint could yield the same results. I will be using Tamiya Italian Red Lacquer Spray. So my question is - would it not make sense to use a flat red as a primer instead of gray ? (especially if I don't have a significant amount of body work/putty involved other than some holes being filled where I moved the engine back ?) To me it doesn't make sense to change the red plastic to gray then back to red. Thoughts ?

3. After my final coat of paint - what procedure are you using to get paint to a high gloss (polish or clear coat ) and when would you apply decals.

Thanks again,
Chris

[hot ford coupe]

Hey Chris, welcome to the site. I see your point about the primer color. It would definitely make sense to use a red as a primer . For some reason and I'm not a real expert on this, gray primer seems to show the defects up the best. I tend to use the Tamiya light gray primer because it goes on thin and and doesn't need much sanding before the color coat. If I were you, I would try a flat red and see what kind of surface results you get. It maybe the right way to go. Like I said, I'm not expert at this and I can always learn some new stuff. I'd be interested in seeing the results. The only time I really have to worry about plastic color is if the plastic is some intense color and I'm worried if it will bleed into a lighter color.

As far as plastic preparation. I usually go to either 600 for general use and 800 to 1000 for really fine results like when I spray a body. For polishing the paint, I use a Detail Master pain polishing set with foam pads from 2400 grit to 12000 grit. I also put a good number of clear coats over my color so I'm polishing the clear rather than thinning out my color coat. It works best with candy colors and metallics. If you need any more info, don't hesitate to ask.

[Don Garrett]

Chris, it really depends on what you are trying to accomplish. Depending on the final finish color and just how deep I want the finish...if it will be a dark color I do all my prep, filling and sanding followed by a light primer . Sand and repair the obvious followed by another light thin coat. If it looks good, I then spray a dark primer and block sand ...the low and high spots will be revealed in this step. Repair low and high spots, sand with finer paper and light finish sanding followed by a thin coat of sealer and it's time to start painting with the finish color. A fair amount of work but necessary for those mile deep paint jobs.

[Buildlarge]

Hey Chris and welcome. Both post from Don & hot ford coupe are dead on for a really great prep/paint finish.. The plastic you are working with as produced by Pocher is a little different than your run of the mill kit. Can and does take primer /paint very well. With care you can even use real auto paint if very careful. Now for color. I understand the color you have chosen, however is this your desire or do you think this is the correct color. A tip, this is not and never was the correct color if you are building a period model. This color would not appear for many years in the future from the date this auto was mfg'd. But if however you want to paint because you like this color, then good choice. The real red was called, I just love this color name, bloodhound red, which was a flat brown red, very much the same color as red brown primer (Krylon). Now if you wanted to add a gloss finish to this authentic color, then just rub out very very gently to smooth and cover with your favorite gloss over coat. Now you have a correct colored auto, however, she never was glossy, but rather a semi-gloss sheen. Regardless of color red you go with, the best undercoat to make the color red pop is white, so go with your flavor for body prep ie:gray, then when she is slick as a baby's butt, cover with a smooth coat of white primer , allow the primer to cook off, I wait 24 hours, again smooth out and start with light coats of your color, allow this to tack, another lite coat etc: until you get that slick, deep uniform color you are looking for. The only other tip, wear a mask (health) and have the best light you can get a hold of for a true color saturation of you finish! I then take the body, put into a box, cover (dust is bad), and I will let that puppy set for a week before I even think about touching. This allows the paint plenty of time to cure out. Hope this has helped. How about some photos of your build, I too am a Pocher fan as is many here. Again, welcome.:)'Rick

[Buildlarge]

Oh yea, decals, on a Pocher kit you get the peel and stick. You can order from ScaleMotorcars the best decals you will ever need for a Alfa. Scale Motorcars also has a good set. As far as to when to apply, only after the top coat has completely cured out, meaning I wait a good 30 days before I apply anything to a finish. Doing so can and has ruined many a great paint job. Are you using any type setting solution. Here is a tip, it helps shrink the film to the paint by a very light chemical reaction ie: reason it smells like it does. This is ok to use if your finish is ready for, other wise, you will etch the finish meaning in a worse case of, complete re-do of the paint job. This is the most hated part for me, removing cured paint. Also most are not aware that the chemicals in paint thinner used thru out the process dries out the plastic, resulting in brittle plastic that can split at pressure points of the body. For this reason I try not to buy a Pocher (built and painted) for a re-build. I look for one that has never been painted as are most builds you find for sale. Pocher's idea was to produce a kit that you just assembled in provided colors, and most builders did just this. I, as one who re-builds them, am thankful for that. If you use the peel and stick, wet the area with water/drop dish detergent. Place the decal where you want, the water allows you to position right where you want press with paper towel that removes the water and sets the decal . But understand once you remove the liquid, the sticker is where you applied and will not move again. I will never use them again after, aftermarket decals were made available. Besides that, the ones in a Pocher kit were incorrect most of the time! Order you a replacement set, you will not be sorry you did. Rick

[ChrisLBren]

You've given me something to think about Ron - whether I paint the car historically accurate or aesthetically pleasing.

I do have the after market decals from Modelmotor cars along with alot of other ones (including safety wire, aluminum dash, water pipes etc and will be ordering leaf springs and new front axle). I've completed the engine and have been working on the frame and body parts to all fit together.

Id rather finish painting the body before the weather turns here in the Midwest - so thanks for the tips Don, Hot Rod and Ron.

[Buildlarge]

Chris of all the parts you named off, the bronze front axle is one of the best parts you will purchase for this. This will keep the car setting level for along time. The plastic front axle has a problem of bending under the weight of the car resulting in the front wheels tilting in or out. Now you have me really wanting to see this beauty you are building. I too am re-storing one . You are dead on about painting before it gets nasty with winter weather. Paint during high humidity is not too good either. I try to paint @ 70-75 degrees, dry, no dampness in the air with paint over spray pulled out and away from paint booth. Here is another tip, all material ie: primer , thinner and paint should all be at mfg's recommend temp before using. I take what I am working with and keep everything together for 24hrs, room temp before using. No I am not a painter by trade, but have painted for a living during my younger days. I know some are reading these post and saying, I just spray out of a can, and I have done this too, but with a $300.00 to $500.00 model, I think it should get the best I can give to result in the finish I am looking for. When I built my 1st three Pocher kits during the early 70's, I did not paint at all. And one more tip, airbrush , preferably a auto touch-up gun from a auto supply house, strain all primer /painter, thin to a milk like consistency, crank up pressure up to the flow you like and spray with even strokes. Rick

[ChrisLBren]

Hey Rick

I was fortunate to pick up an unbuilt kit (other than the engine which was partially built for 350 !)

I dont have the best set up for painting (no airbrush , paint gun and spray booth) and will need to paint outside. In these tough times after paying for the car and aftermarket parts dont really have the luxury of buying these things. I was hoping to get a decent paint job out of spray cans and lots of wet sanding in between coats. Is that possible ?

Also what is your choice of putties do your prefer for filling the holes left by moving back the engine, filling the holes for the headlights and wheel fenders. Im converting this Monza into a Muletto type racer.

Im a wooden ship builder by trade - havent built a plastic model in 25 years but am having a blast. Any advice is appreciated !
Chris

[mouppe]

Hi there,

I wrote some pretty extensive commentary when I painted my two Pocher models. The threads are on the site somewhere. In them I noted some problems, which paints, sandpapers and polishing tools I used etc.

Basically, the Tamiya light grey primer is simply the best. It should not affect the final choice of colour unless it is white and then you would use a white primer . It also dries super fast, and sits well under enamels or lacquers. After this, I would recommend Tamiya lacquers. On my first Pocher, I used enamels, and lacquers, from a can and from an airbrush . The best results were definitely obtained using Tamiya lacquers straight from the can, but they are expensive. I used SEVERAL cans painting my Pocher Mercedes. The Pocher Alfa is significantly smaller but even so you will probably use two or three cans or so.

Lacquers dry fast. Enamels take weeks. Seriously, weeks. So you can start polishing quickly with lacquers and dust is not a problem because they dry fast. I used a set of polishing pads from Micro Mark (I think) for the Alfa. No need to clear coat with lacquers and frankly, no need to polish either if the paint is applied properly.

Thats my tuppence worth. You can ask five people and get five methods, but mine worked for me and my Pocher Merc.

Mouppe.

[Buildlarge]

Hello again Chris, I understand exactly when it comes to what is available for your hobby's funds. As stated above, you can get a very good result with a spray can. I remember seeing a fella paint from a can that rivaled anything painted with hi-end spray equipment. I am not used to Tamiya paint, but I believe mouppe has and just as he stated, it worked for him, and it can work for you. I do on occasion spray w/a can, but not as much as I spray w/AB and or touch-up sprayer. And yes this can be expensive. If you use a can to paint with the best thing I can suggest is, distance from object sprayed, read and follow the instructions on the can. I like to shake, shake, and shake before using. I also set the can in warm water for a while to warm up the paint. I have got some slick finishes by this trick. Use as much of the same brand as possible, some brands to not blend too well. My favorite putty is no longer made, however I have started using another Tamiya product>Basic Modeling Putty . I like because this stuff sands slick and feathers out, does not load up the sand paper/stick, which ever you use. Does shrink some, just sand , re-apply and continue until the void is filled. Takes paint well, does not crack under paint and stays where you put it. I know, Red Putty , and a tube will last for ever, good stuff too if you can locate. I just hate that if you do not get cap on right, well you know the rest of the story. You can find @ auto paint supply houses. Good stuff, not cheap. Testors made a spin off and some times I do run across a tube, I never liked their take on it. I used Squadron Green f/years, do not, I repeat, do not like the new improved Green Putty . But others sware by it? Hope this helped.Rick

[mouppe]

I was looking through my old Merc photos for fun and to refresh my memory and came across this one which I remember posting on this site. It is after six or seven coats of lacquer , and a little sanding and polishing. No clear coat at all.

Micromesh is the name of the polishing set- money very well spent.

[ChrisLBren]

Thanks again for the advice - Im surprised I got this far for a rookie - the body ALL FIT after the horror stories Ive heard.

I chose to glue the tail onto the rear plate then glued this assembly to the main body per Koos CD - the screws holes are not well aligned for a true body fit (I did this while everything was screwed into the frame - this is after I moved the engine back, slanted the radiator and fit the hood parts into the nose snug.) I also chose to glue the firewall into the main body to make sanding down the "proud" firewall easier to follow the lines of the car.

Next step is to take it all apart, fill the headlight holes in the nose, fill up the fenders holes in the frame, and fill in the left windshield holes.

After puttying, what grade sandpaper is best to finish on body parts with before first primer coat ? Unlike wood Im assuming some of those very tiny smooth but noticeable sand marks will fill in with primer .

Im sold on Tamiya Gray Primer and Lacquers - they are most available to me. Im still stuck on color - I do like Ricks idea of Red Brown which is historically accurate - but I am not painting the wire wheels nor any of the metal fittings, and am not weathering the model whatsoever. So that approach might be inconsistent.

Ive got some great dark brown pullup leather from Model Motorcars for the seat - Im now thinking Tamiya Italian Red might be too bright - but they dont offer much else. Suggestions ?

Mouppe - Ive seen you on the boards - I too want to build the Amati's 74 Ship of the Line and build it as the HMS Bellerophon - as it was launched. Curious to see what you think of MS's version of the kit.

[hot ford coupe]

Sounds like you're pretty much getting along great here Chris. You asked about the putty . the kind I use is the same stuff they use on the real things. I use Evercoat polyester glazing putty or any good 2 part fine glazing putty you can get at an auto supply store. The single part putties are o.k. but I find them a little grainier and they do have the shrinkage problem. I'll use it for really shallow defects where shrinkage will be almost non existant. The 2 part putty sets pretty fast but does not shrink because of the way it sets. You can also apply it in up to 1/8 inch coats if you ever need to. For sanding , I start with either 320 grit if I have a lot of gross sanding to do or 400 if I don't have to cut too much. For the final shaping, I'll go to 600 grit. I always sand wet with a thin stream of running water. It helps keep the paper cutting and produces a really smooth surface. I also do alot of block sanding so I don't gouge my surface.

[mouppe]

Chris,

I am collecting my HMS Vanguard this evening and will take some photos and post them on Dry Dock Models.

There should also be a 1/8 Hasegawa SE5a as well.

I think I'll attack the aeroplane first.

Mouppe.

[mouppe]

After puttying, what grade sandpaper is best to finish on body parts with before first primer coat ? Unlike wood Im assuming some of those very tiny smooth but noticeable sand marks will fill in with primer .

If you apply the primer correctly and thinly, it should not cover anything up. One of the advantages of grey primer is that it better allows you to see where dimples and marks need to be filled and sanded.

The same goes for lacquer paints. They should not be applied thickly in an effort to hide something.

I wet sand the primer with 400 or so, and then start at 1000 or so for the lacquers. Always wet. And I rinse constantly whilst sanding .

You will see that plastic is completely different to wood. Wood is porous, and thickly applied paint works better.

All the best
Mouppe.