Kit for the Fiat F2

[Nortley]

The exposed valve gear on the FIAT engine has had me puzzled, but I just stumbled on an explanation. Classic Grand Prix Cars by Karl Ludvigsen has a brief description on p.25. The engine was a hemi, with both valves in a cylinder actuated by the single rocker. That exposed rod with a spring at the bottom is a push-pull rod, pushing the exhaust valve open and pulling the right hand side of the rocker down to open the intake valve. Must be some strange looking cams, and Ludvigsen mentions that this design necessarily limited valve timing possibilities. Looking at those engine photos now begins to make sense. Valve springs were a weak point in that era, putting plain leaf springs out in the open air to close the hot exhaust valves is a pretty straightforward solution to beating the heat. The valves themselves are built into cages which are fastened to the block, the exhausts by a big packing nut, the intakes by studs and nuts. Heads and cylinders are cast as a unit, and unless newly painted on the original, these parts could use several colors on a model. It would be great to see a few drawings of the inside of this engine, my x ray eyes only go so deep into the old photos.

[David Cowin]

After buying and starting to build a Pocher Alfa Monze in 1978 marriage, work etc have prevented completion and now I have a Pocher Fiat and Entex Lotus 72D waiting for my imminent retirement.

I, too, have been puzzled by the Fiat valve-gear and the shortage of good photos of the original (other than those already posted on this website). One noted racing car historian describes the 1907 Fiat as using semi-elliptic leaf-springs for the valves whereas the photos tend to confirm the springs are only quarter-elliptic ie as modelled by Pocher (and by Revival in 1/20 scale).

Exposed 1/2 or 1/4-elliptic valve-springs are not atypical for the period and may be seen on aero-engines eg Beardmore (example on show in Science Museum, London altho well above eye-level) and Curtis OX-5 (at least two examples installed in car chassis and active in historic racing in Britain) as well as on car engines.

There does seem to be sufficient evidence that the 1907 Fiat engine has a water pump altho some cars of the period relied on thermo-syphon cooling rather than forced circulation.

I live on the edge of London and frequently visit South Kensington where after some 30 years I have again become an active member of the Royal College of Science Motor Club which maintains and uses for about 1,000 miles a year a 3-owner 1916 Dennis N-type fire-engine (9-plus litres, 4 cylinders, no front-wheel brakes, no dynamo/alternator, no starter motor, solid steel disc wheels with solid rubber tyres), so I do get first-hand experience of early motoring. City & Guilds College has a 1902 James & Brown car.

Imperial College's library includes a volume written in 1906 with GA drawings and text on many specific models of car (those made before 1906 obviously). I hope to scan selected pages for reference. Unfortunately the book does not provide details of any Fiat, saying only that they are very similar to the Mercedes cars but I hope to find more details of lubrication systems, another detail missing from the Pocher model.

[hot ford coupe]

Hi David. Thanks so much for posting this information. This is the kind of thing we really need for our Pocher enthusiasts. Anything you can help us with will be more than appreciated. You're really lucky to have access to the early cars, especially those which a good number of us have never heard about. It definitely expands our site info base.

[Buildlarge]

It's a bit strange that all the 3 FIAT kits are reproducing the F-2 FIAT which Nazzaro raced to 1st place in the French GP of 1907, but they're all 3 different!

The seats are correct on the 1st issue, the spare tires are (more or less) correct on the latest issue (K88) etc...

I think POCHER made a first attempt at reproducing the original F-2 car (first 2 kits) and then decided to make a copy of the FIAT F-2 that is exposed in a museum in Italy/ Problem is that this car (the sole survivor of the 3 I guess) has been extensively modified over the years.

Normally the "real" F-2 was completely red (radiator, cowl etc) and had greyish tires with 3 spares at the back. The front and rear wheels had different sizes (hence the 3 spares - 2 + 1) and the mud skirts on the sides were made of leather. The exhaust was completely different too, much bigger and shorter than on the exposed (and copied) model. The radiator was light coloured and the F-2 was black... just the opposite from what's in the kit. The aluminium coloured cowl should be red too...

If I can buy a decently priced first issue Pocher Fiat, I'll transform it completely to get as close to the F-2 of 1907 as possible.

Now I have the K88 built and painted "out of the box" with a little extra goodies (oil a fuel lines, rivets, bolts...). Recently I painted the brass rods in red... it makes a world of difference! Next step is to wrap the leafsprings in white cord and to weather the exhaust. I also read somewhere that the rear leafsprings should be inversed, taht is the rear part should be below the frame and not above it as mentionned in the instructions. A simple job to do!

Anybody ever tried to paint the tires white or light grey? I'm afraid to ruin the tires if sthg goes wrong. I can try on a spare before, but wht paint should I use? I dont have an airbrush , I do everything with a pencil!

Pactra White RC body paint for lexian, clean the tires, air dry, hang, and with light until covered spray the tire, allow to dry. Paint is flexable and helps when putting onto rim. I plain to do white wall tires f/the Fiat, not solid white wheels, for those wondering why white tires, is because rubber is white raw and the tires produced during that time were therefore white. I have came across a photo that shows the Fiat w/white wall, all sides, tires, this is a version I have never done and gives the car a hot rod look and is in keeping with the period.

[hot ford coupe]

Thanks for the tip, Buildlarge. I've got a set of Cord 1/12 size tires that will need that treatment.

[Buildlarge]

I think I decided on the Fiat F2 for my first kit. I have been watching ebay and I have seen 3 different versions of this. There is the one in the white box that has yellow spoked wheels, the one in a red box, also with yellow spoked wheels and one in a black box that has the Fiat oval in blue on the top right corner, this one has redish spoked wheels. Does anyone know if there is a difference in the three different versions? I like the look of the redish spoke wheels. I have also seen a thread on here that had someone do a F2 kit. His engine had what seemed like alot more brass than these kits had. Does anyone offer aftermarket pieces for the F2 kit, like for the engine, the seat covers and floor? I really appreciate this website, I am learning so much and hope to pick many brains in the years to come, as long as people will allow it anyway. One more thing, should I paint this kit, or leave it as it comes? Thanks again

Hey chevyrsss, did you get this kit and have you started yet. As to painting the kit, that is up to you, Pocher did market the kits as just build, molded in color. However painting does bring the car to life, and this one does not require a lot of painting. Just wanted to say hello and waiting for your posting. I too have a UPC version and there are some wonderful photos posted on your thread, heck even my Avatar Photo is included. I have built this kit many times many ways, but the photo of the F-2 w/seats lowered and whitewall tires is a mean version that almost makes it look like a hot rod. I believe this photo is taken much later than when the car was campaigned, looks like some fellas have modified and added the tires from the time they were playing with. A little info about this car, Pocher did not provide as raced, there is a tile cut that shows this car in the correct color with everything red and all white tires. That's if you want a period perfect version. Now there is photo's that show the car w/black rubber tires, but if you want to build as 1st campaigned by FIAT, then solid white tires are correct. Anyhow looking forward to your postings.:)'Rick

[little gü]

Hi all
I´ll jump in this FIAT thread. I bought an K 70 kit on e-bay a couple of weeks ago.
The motor was finished right out the box ( no painting etc.). After checking all the parts I dissassembled the motor, cutted off all the fake hex-nuts and drilled holes for replaceing them with brass or pewter bolts and nuts. Now the motor is painted in flat black. The spokes and rims are also finished. Does anybody know where this car has the oil-pump and how it does it look ?
Gü

[little gü]

Here are the pic`s

[Buildlarge]

Well, at least a thread is running on a Fait! Glad to have you posting little gu. You have the right idea about re-doing the engine. There are numerous items that require attention. But we will start with the engine block. First Pocher tried to cut a corner by making this a single piece, when in fact you have the upper block and a lower. Look @ cylinder block and you will notice there are bolts @ ea. corner attaching the cylinders to the top of the lower block. Then this is attached to the lower block to give you a engine assembly. Now comes the fun part, 1. you can razor saw this from the plate it sets on!!!!!!!!only for the strong hearted and a very, very steady hand, but can be done, or 2. as you have stated, remove the bolts, clean up the block, mask and paint cylinders a sep color from the block. The block can be enhanced by texturing to rep a cast part as it is, then paint a flat dark metallic gray (dark being the key word), almost a gunmetal. I usually paint the lower block steel or bright metallic light gray. Now we have only worked with the two parts that make up the block, the rest of the details are up to you or just use the parts as they are. Believe me, they can be reworked to a very high level if you are willing to put the time into them. Many areas just cry for detailing, but that is up to you again, bolts is a good place to start. I won't go into the wheels, just set them to the side and just focus on the engine. I will tell you this, front wheels un-painted wood with painted metal rims. Rear wheels all painted, spokes everything, reason, to reinforce the rear wheels since they were after all the drive wheels that receaved a high amount of torque from the chain drive. This also helped to keep the spokes tight in the hubs for a chain driven vehicle. Here is a little fact about wood spoke wheels, every so often you took the car to a creek and set the vehicle into the stream and kept washing water over the spokes until they were soaked w/water. Then when the spokes dried out, they swelled and tightened into the hubs. You would know to do this when you started hearing the spokes rattleing as you drove the vehicle. Let them go to long, well, we have flats, they had rims to fall apart!!!!!!!!Rick

[Buildlarge]

A quick correction: The spokes swelled from being wet and tightened into the cut slots of the hub, just like a old western wagon. After a period of time, the wood would dry out, the wood would drawup/shrink and they would get loose again. Painting the wood was a way to keep these spokes in place. Now I wonder why not the front ones as well? Weight: the same applies today as then>less means speed!

[Nortley]

Hi all, Here is a link to another FIAT build that will give both inspiration and some answers to some nagging prototype questions. The language is German, but the pictures are universal. There is a lot of other real good modelling on this site. Danke, Wettringer Modelbauforum.

Wettringer-Modellbauforum | Bauberichte | Im Bau: Fiat F2 von Pocher 1:8

[hot ford coupe]

Sand casting is definitely a good solution for engine parts. They polished up nice and looked a heck of a lot better than the original parts. I've got to get into that technique. I think Dan has done pretty well doing some sand casting . Anybody know where to get the sand and the right metal? Thanks in advance.

[Buildlarge]

Great build going on there. I must admit I was very impressed and my lap top has Google Translate, this automatically translates any language to English. The reading was very interesting as well. I agree, this guy is a Master Craftsman. I hope to see this as a finished project. I really like the real time photos of the Fiat/engine details, this would be of great help, even if you do not as I have not the skills to machine/turn parts, you can use what he has shown to detail the parts as they come in the kit. The sand casting is a area we all can try our hand at. I just received from SMC.s a set of metal parts f/a Alfa. Now you can polish and have a metal part and not a plastic painted part, nothing looks better f/metal than metal! I also wish to take a moment to give SMC's their props, if you have not ever ordered from,that's a shame. I have received nothing but the best service, and I mean service beyond a supplier's have too. I would order everything from him if I could. :)'Rick

[strevo]

Sand casting is definitely a good solution for engine parts. They polished up nice and looked a heck of a lot better than the original parts. I've got to get into that technique. I think Dan has done pretty well doing some sand casting. Anybody know where to get the sand and the right metal? Thanks in advance.

Here's a tip for the TDR guys. The Z-Printer which is what I believe TDR uses to print their parts is capable of printing in a sand-like material that you can use to sand-cast real metal parts. It saves the time of having to create a master to get the mold from. I'm not sure if the shop that TDR uses has this option, but it might be worth checking out. Here's a link for more info... Metal Casting
-Steve