Pocher discussion

[Don Garrett]

That's a great question Mr. Tin.
I suppose the challenge of turning a Pocher kit into a museum quality masterpiece does it for some folks and for others it may simply be matter of "status" because the kits are getting rarer and they are investing in them for future gain.

Like you I can't help but wonder why....I've had a couple of the kits (new) that I bought years ago for under a hundred bucks each. I wouldn't however pay the current prices for any of them.
Guess I'm just old and confused as the last time I was at a Barrett Jackson an Edsel (not in the best shape I've ever seen) sold for more than I paid for my first house.

[Ton]

When Pocher 1:8 was introduced in the seventies it was a revelation in a market with very little detailed cars (tamiya was also introduced but was much smaller) and the scale was one of a kind. For the mediocre builder (like me in that time) it was the ultimate kit. I remember buying my first in 1977 for about $700 dollars. In that period you could buy 5 times more for a dollar than nowadays. Having the possibility building such an exclusive model you accepted all the flaws too. Nowadays I buy and build them because they are still unique and again I accept all the flaws because it is still one of kind and they are the representative of a big scale era that imo will never come back.

[Mr.Tin]

Hmm, interesting. To me they are just big ol', bad ol' kits. And I don't like or build kits. Never have, BUT, oddly, I love the thrill of opening a kit! So if someone gave me an old Pocher, I would almost certainly build it. But that would be cussedness on my part.
I seem to remember a Corvette and an E-Type in 1/8th scale that were around long before the Pochers.
As to the seat springs and pistons, I could never see the point in including what you can't see and which would wreck itself if regularly operated. I guess it was just marketing spin.

So, next question:- does anybody build 'em straight, without all the astonishingly expensive add-ons?
So many are those add-ons that one also has to wonder how many kits are still out there, to warrant whole companies turning out goodies for them.

Mr.Tin

[CTDavies]

Big questions here, Mr. Tin. For me it's the challenge of getting it right. The kits are, of course, not that bad, otherwise they wouldn't have sold that many (and at prices way out of reach for most modellers). I believe they can be built straight out of the box, but you would have to use glue, a file and a sanding block to make it look halfway right. But the errors in the outlines is what bugs me most, especially on the Mercedes, because if built oob it will look nothing like the prototype. Most have their errors but some are better than other, the Mercedes probably being the worst, which is probably why I am building one now. However, I can't see any outline flaws on the Alfa or the Bugatti, which is quite surprising because the Alfa was one of their first kits and the Bugatti one of their last. I believe if you try one of these two, chances are, you will get it done without too much trouble, if you're a reasonably competent modeller. In these Tamigawa days, model builders have become more painters and finishers to me and modelling Tamigawa quality kits loses a lot of its appeal. I have never been an airbrush geek and, for me, modelling has never been about being one. Maybe one day I'll try scratchbuilding a model car, maybe a Vauxhall 30-98 or a Weinberger Bugatti Royale.

[jwagenaar]

mr tin, Indeed a nice discussion about the value - quality ratio of pocher. Of course prices are largely determined by high demand and low supply. This applies to everything in this world. I too am the proud owner of 4 Pocher models. with one I am currently working. I can imagine that many builders on this forum looks down upon pocher (given their solutions on this forum i can understand that). But many others will still look up to pocher from the normal models. I think if people would not want to/can scratch or they do not have the skills to do, they will make a choice for this models. Finally, it's true that quality of the first models were much better than the later versions. I agree with the contribution of Ton (Excuse the English, is a bit rusty).

[Egon]

To me it's the scale, where else can you find so many variants of 1:8 scale cars in this quality with diff materials, you get a decent car out of the box and there are plenty of details you can improve on the models if thats wanted, thats the game for me to make it a special.
I had a monogram corvette, all plastic, no thanks.

[mraitch]

And why oh why did they never offer a 4 1/2 litre bentley - i love the airfix kit - but it too needs "additions". The challenge (and fun) at this scale 1/8 or 1/12 is improving on all the stuff the manufacturers left out. Finding a wire mesh for the Bentley lights and grille, putting "real" leather on the seats, creating wood grain on the roller and "fabric" looking finish where appropriate. Course you can just "build" the Pochers, but there is SO much more that one can do - and in a much easier scale. Try getting an 1/32 Airfix kit of the blower to look decent or even the 1/24 scale moodels

[hot ford coupe]

I've never bought a Pocher kit and I'll probably never buy one. If my wife ever sees the 4 figure price for some of these things, she'll send me to the shed where I'll be living for the rest of my existence. One of the draws of a kit like a Pocher (and this was alluded to also) is the challenge to turn a pig's ear into a silk purse and get away with it. On another site I belong to, Large Scale Planes, I can clearly see even many of the good kits with inaccuracies that frustrate the daylights out of a lot of kit builders. Those modellers take pride in the fact that they can overcome any accuracy challenge that the kit can throw at them and create a museum piece. It can even be more challenging than completely scratchbuilding a subject. At least that's my theory.

[bills69camaro]

I bought my first Pocher in 1978, the Alpha 1932 Spider. Since then I bought three more. For me it's the detail, the more there is the better I like it. Although none of them are finished. I guess it's the lack of good reference thats keeping me from finishing
them. I plan on finishing at least one and the rest will be stashed away in a dark corner.

Bill

[Mr.Tin]

I can kind of see the appeal in opening a huge box of tricks, but I would pretty soon put the lid back on once I discovered that the quality did not in any way match the exorbitant price.
And I would be so outraged that I'd probably insist on my money back. It's the price/quality mis-match that I would object to. The fact that a model costing four figures should need a considerable amount of work would ruin it for me.
I suppose as a patternmaker by trade, I would not dream of foisting so bad a job on a client and then expecting him to pay me for it!
Mention of the Airfix Bentley is relevant as I once made a pattern of a Bentley for a silver smith customer, which we based on the Airfix model to keep costs down. It needed relatively little work to become a very nice model, which once turned into resin mouldings and electro-formed in 7 thou. of silver, sold by Rolls-Royce for £25,000! The problems encountered in the process were in the electro-forming, which hadn't been done properly by the silversmith, but my work in making everything fit properly I took as a given.
As to being more challenging to do than a full scratchbuild, I would say, "do a scratchbuild" and see that there is nothing more challenging, by definition.
There is, however, the inevitable truth, that if you find yourself, by whatever means, with a Pocher kit before you and notice errors, you WILL correct them, won't you? And in so doing, find a pleasure not to be found from putting together a better fitting Tamiya -esque modern kit! A strange anomaly which is perhaps behind the appeal of these "once-upon-a-time" kits.

I think they could not survive these days. They would HAVE to be of better quality, since the price would be that much higher and people are a lot fussier these days. This alone is probably the reason why Hornby have not invested any time or money in them.

Interesting views. I could almost wish that an old unknown Uncle left me a Pocher kit in his will!

Martin

[jrhaddock]

Why Pocher?
Well, why not?
1) There are no other comparable large scale kits.
2) The choice of models was (largely) inspired ... Bugatti, RR, M-B, Alfa-Romeo; all from the 30's which was one of the most exciting periods of car design ever. And the iconic F-40.
3) 1/8th scale is, arguably, the smallest scale at which you can still add all the detail present on the prototypes. Go smaller and lots of compromises creep in.
4) Pocher made a kit that looked pretty good, especially if you were (are) new to building these kind of models.
5) There's no way an average modeller can scratch build , say, a RR Phantom II or even an Alfa. Where would they start? Typically there are few drawings available and little info about the actual construction. Even trying to scratch build a variant of the Phantom II requires a lot of research.
6) The Pocher's are good platforms for adding detail and correcting mistakes. I know they're not perfect, far from it, but they are a good start.

Are they worth it?
That's a good question. And it all depends on what you are trying to achieve.
I think they are, but I'm biased. I've spent literally thousands of hours building historically accurate, highly detailed versions of Pocher kits and derived a great deal of satisfaction and pleasure from doing so. Along the way I've been forced to stretch my modelling skills way beyond what I thought I could do. Can't complain about that. But typically you'll have a thousand dollars plus into any really well done model. That's not for everyone.

We pick our poisons!!

John

[Mr.Tin]

Why not, indeed, if you're happy to pay through the nose (especially these days) for something which is badly made, poorly patterned and has always got away with it!
I am not.
There is no reason any reasonably capable person should not scratchbuild anything at all. Heaven knows there are enough books about it. Where they start? Anyway they wish. Some start with the wheels because they hate making them...get them out of the way first. Some make the engine first, like our chum on another thread with his E-Type. Others start the way the real thing's done with the frame or monococque. Others, like me, jump about all over the place as the fancy takes us. It really doesn't matter.
You start with measurements and photographs. Then you do the drawings. After that if you want to make an axle followed by a speedo and a back seat, do so! Who cares. It's your model to dip into like a good book.

By all means you crack on putting Messrs. Pocher's mistakes right if that is your interest, but please don't perpetuate that old, tired myth that scratchbuilding is some special art or mystery. IT AIN'T!! It's just modelmaking as we know it Jim. It was there first and plenty of people did it. And you need a tiny bit of space, few tools to start with and you most certainly do not need a workshop like those in the gallery, where little if any real work ever appears to have been done, judging by the perfect wall paint, surfaces and complete lack of any dust! The finest modelmaker who ever lived, Henry Baigent worked in a cramped, untidy little place that belied the astonishing models that came out of it.
There are threads on here which show scratchbuilding step by step, including my own McLaren M8F one, which show that you can do it as well as anyone else.

As to what it costs, there's nowt so cheap as scratchbuilding. Tens of pounds, rather than thousands. Surely that alone is worth the effort?

Mr.Tin

[Ton]

There is no reason any reasonably capable person should not scratchbuild anything at all.

skills Martin I call myself a rather gifted "assembler" but I definitely don't have the skills to scratch....simply because I have no technical education so I simply miss the basics.

[hot ford coupe]

This discussion has brought up a number of great points on both sides of the argument as well as a few misconceptions.

Misconception #1 is that you need some very expensive, highly technical equipment and a huge workshop to scratchbuild a good and accurate model. Martin, your point is spot on. There are a number of incredible modellers out there that build some awesome creations with nothing more than hand instruments. In fact, there are a couple of tutorials somewhere in the site written by Don Garrett and myself as well as a number of others that show how to build with a minimum of instruments and equipment. It's true that some of the expensive equipment like mills and lathes can make the work faster and easier but they're not really necessary or critical to the operation. There are alternatives and I've got a number of them.

Misconception #2 is that many of you who can build great kits haven't got the skills for scratchbuilding. If we didn't have the skills, we wouldn't be modellers in the first place. In other words, if you're a member on this site and build models, you got the skills If you can do great work with a kit including part preparation, part modification for a better fit and good clean technique, it's not the skills you're lacking but the technical knowledge to make the parts. I always thought that scratchbuilding was beyond my modelling level but with the help of some great teachers and encouragement on this very site, I was able to demystify the art and do a bunch of scratchbuilding myself. My specialty seems to be engines. That's what this site has continued to address with many of our step by step tutorials. Even the use of other materials beyond styrene can be easily mastered with practice, diligence and a strong desire to get results. You may experience some frustration and have to do something several times to get it right but [B]that's common to all scratchbuilders.[/B] Not everything turns out great the first try. If I had a dime for every time I did something more than once or twice to get it right, I'd have a fortune.

Now back to the topic. Like I said earlier, I won't buy a Pocher kit. Coming from a field like dentistry, everything I did was scratchbuilt. The thing that used to drive me crazy was when I had to rework someone else's lousy work. First, I had to undo everything they did and second, I had to literally start all over from the beginning. That's why scratchbuilding to me is much less frustrating than building something like a Pocher kit. When I'm scratchbuilding, I'm already taking it from step 2 and I don't have to rework someone else's lousy work. Besides, once I learn the scratchbuilding techniques and have practiced them for a while (that's the real trade secret), it's not so difficult anymore. Let's hear from some more of you guys how you feel. Who know's? Your concerns may even generate some new tutorials.