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Delage 15-S-8 Grand Prix (1/8)
Goal amount for this year: 518 USD, Received: 295.00 USD (57%)
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    1. Kit: , by (Active Member) Roy vd M. is offline
      Builder Last Online: Aug 2019 Show Printable Version Email this Page
      Model Scale: 1/8 Rating:  Thanks: 4
      Started: 12-10-18 Build Revisions: Never  
      Supported Attribution Scratch Built Build in Progress

      The plan is to build a 1/8th scale Grand Prix car of 1927, the Delage 15-S-8.

      Measurements were taken, now I'll have to turn those into a 3D drawing. After that the building can begin... but we're a long way from that. It is my current intention to make a video log of my progress, as that seems to facilitate both explanation and understanding of what I'm doing.

      Hope you'll enjoy!

      This is the subject at hand:



      And the first video:




      Delage 15-S-8 Grand Prix (1/8)
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  1. Roy vd M.'s Avatar Active Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by MODEL A MODEL View Post
    I had the morning today to read all of your postings on Britmodeler! That was a lot to digest! Postings, and drawings! and videos! it really was exhausting!
    At this point in time the info in the opening post has factually been narrowed down to being only part of the collection. Since I wrote it I have made pictures and videos of five out of six chassis, focussing on #1 and #3. Hundreds of pictures and probably some fifty videos of the cars... I'll want to use all reference material I have when drawing the model so I'll have to do many hours of sorting.

    The drawings in the opening post won't help me too much unfortunately, with the exception of a few. I think one of the nicest old drawings I know, by Creswell, is not in the Britmodeller thread because I had not scanned it (I didn't know it at the time). Just now I made a scan, to show you (copyrights have, to the best of my knowledge, been time banned).



    I guess I'm a binge thread reader, as I regularly read in whole, the postings here on this forum, and can boast having gone through Rogers build four times over the years!
    Haha I can imagine that, there's a lot to digest and multiple readings certainly would imply multiple learnings. The only thread on this forum I went through in full, thus far, is Propeller's build report of his beautiful Talbot-Lago Grand Prix car. It will take awhile before I'll have finalized Roger's report.

    I read at length all the variations of "Engine Turning" experiments and advise, and though you have arrived at a very good, and practical method, I thought to add my two cents. (...) I have used mechanical erasers, available at most art supply shops. Several grades of coarseness are available, their diameter is constant, but it can be reduced by rolling its edge against some sandpaper, and with a motorized unit, it is very easy to apply.
    That's great! I'll surely have a go before making a final decision upon which method to use. Among the (at least) 30 items I tried, of course there were erasers but not these. Very interesting idea. Eventually I'll share which method will suit me best. But the way you describe this, is promising. Perhaps the rubbery quality of this tip would be even better than the solution I found, although I won't ever complain if not! The only thing I fear is that the tip diameter will be too wide. These swirls are REALLY small. But we'll see!

    Anyway, to show the other readers what we're talking about, have a look at this pretty 1,500cc 8 cylinder engine:



    PS- Have you tried to "swirl" the nickel plating? It should be able to withstand this process, and if it does wear-through, look into "Brush-plating"
    Yes I tried it and the nickel indeed withstands this well. The hereunder part is nickel-plated brass.



    -And to you and your family, a Merry Christmas!
    I wish the same to you and to all forum members who read this :)

    Quote Originally Posted by Roger Zimmermann View Post
    Another person who appreciate what I'm doing, thanks!
    I feel I'm joining a long, long line there.

    However, I will not apply your 3D method; it's too elaborate and technical (read use of a specific computer program) for my needs.
    Through the results you have achieved it's clear that you don't need this 3D method and I'd like to clarify that I won't use it for 3D-printing. As things stand now I really don't want to use any 3D-printing (I don't reject it and I even encourage its use toward other modellers, but I consider myself -although young, as you kindly say- quite old-fashioned). I even won't convert my lathe to CNC, nor will I do so with my milling machine. I even plan to make every single bolt and nut (insofar visible on the model) with my own lathe and mill. I'm well aware that's crazy. Briefly said, I would like to make this model full-scratch all the way for personal reasons.

    With the Continental I understand you have some drawings. Like Gerald Wingrove you use those blueprints / drawings to build the car. With the Delage however, nothing has survived the war (or so I was told by the author of a 2017 book on these cars). I have blueprint-resembling drawings of some parts but they appear to have been drawn at a later stage.

    The drawings that are publicly available, for example those in the 1949 Pomeroy book ("The Grand Prix Car 1906-1939") are useful but inconsistent. The overal shape of the car is never the same, being a result of these cars having been amended (especially the rear) and there even being differences between the 1927 cars (all of which looked very different in 1926 when they were built... whole story to tell in one of the vlogs). So what to do? The only very original car still in existence is situated at Revs Institute in Naples, Florida. After being in contact with the collection's conservator for over a year I decided to request permission to extensively photograph and measure the car. I had already photographed the car one year before, when it was at Retromobile in Paris. Permission was granted so I flew there and took hundreds of dimensions over the course of two full days.

    Using those dimensions I could of course make 2D drawings. But I'm sure I'd encounter difficulties during the build if I left it at that. Finding out that Fusion 360 was not difficult to master as I first thought I decided to have a go. One more reason to do so is that Revs Institute is interested in getting a copy of the drawings for their archives. As they were so incredibly helpful, providing me unlimited access to the car and trusting me to an amazing extent, I feel I owe them as accurate a set of drawings, ideally a 3D model that all kinds of drawings can be derived from, as reasonable possible. Another reason is that the owner of chassis #4, Mr Peter Giddings, asked the same. An inspiring and warm, very interesting man, I couldn't refuse his request if I wanted to.

    So those are the reasons why I'll draw the car in 3D first. For myself, I'll use the drawings solely as a basis of information for building the car with my bare hands... no 3D printing, no CNC turning, no CNC milling. There's going to be a lot of elbow grease, swearing and hard labor :)


    Delage 15-S-8 Grand Prix (1/8)
    QUOTE QUOTE #17

  2. Roger Zimmermann's Avatar Yearly Subscriber
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    Thanks for accepting my answer about modern technologies. with your explanation, I understand the goal with your 3D drawing; I hope the ones who will get that will be happy.
    This is correct, I have some drawing from the Continental but it was not enough to make the model with that. I spent many hours in the storage room from the man who ad 4 of them, plus a quantity of pictures.
    When I began, I heard that it could be possible to scan a complete vehicle (or what ever you want). If the goal was to make replicas for a commercial purpose, the associated costs (which I don't know) could maybe be justified. For a single model, it was just a dream. Even if I did many small errors, the end result can be seen. Would I do things differently now? Sure, man is always cleverer after!
    QUOTE QUOTE #18

  3. Roy vd M.'s Avatar Active Member
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    I hope they will be happy too Roger... frankly what they will get is better than what's available now... nothing I had indeed read that you needed many photographs to create the model. It's always the same, no matter how many walkarounds we'll make; at least I always turn out to have too little reference. Regarding scanning the vehicle, yes that's possible but like you say it was way too expensive. And still, only the outline shapes can be processed. But I admit I regret I'm not a millionaire who can simply put 25K on the table and have the car scanned (which I'm quite sure Revs Institute would have agreed on if they received a copy). Still, these drawing exercises are nice and teach me many things.

    - - -

    The fifth vlog is ready. I'll first explain why I won't use my previous drawing...


    Simply put, because it had become too disorganised. I failed to divide the drawing into subassemblies and components.





    And then we finally start drawing the model!




    Until part of the shackle is finalised.





    The video is 3 minutes. Enjoy!







    Delage 15-S-8 Grand Prix (1/8)
    QUOTE QUOTE #19

  4. Roger Zimmermann's Avatar Yearly Subscriber
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    Impressive method of work!
    QUOTE QUOTE #20

  5. MODEL A MODEL's Avatar Yearly Subscriber
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    Yes! Very impressive!

    Hello Roy! Merry Christmas! Your vlogs are perhaps the best sales tool I have seen for getting someone like me to invest my time in learning another program!

    Academically, I could always see the value, and for my work, (day job), there is an advantage, but while I work the hours that I do, I could not find the enthusiasm to make the time to learn, nor set aside the budget to invest in modeling like this.

    Thank you for your post! I am convinced that this is something I must learn!

    I will subscribe to your channel, as soon as I figure out how to do that!

    Thank You, again!

    -Don

    Delage 15-S-8 Grand Prix (1/8)-50-05_delage_gp-19-jpg

    I have subscribed. 12 /25/2018
    Last edited by MODEL A MODEL; 12-25-18 at 12:45 PM.
    -craftsmanship is a lifelong project of
    self-construction and self determination
    QUOTE QUOTE #21

  6. Roy vd M.'s Avatar Active Member
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    Thanks Roger and Don for your interest!

    I'm happy that my videos have inspired you to make up your mind about trying to learn Fusion yourself one day.

    New vlog in a new format... instead of 7 to 12 hours it now took me a little over half an hour to make (pros and cons of course... let's see how this new design will be received; there is no explanation but I'm always open for questions and remarks about the videos and used techniques etc.; I'll now have more time to do the drawing and, later on, scale modelling):




    Delage 15-S-8 Grand Prix (1/8)
    QUOTE QUOTE #22

  7. MODEL A MODEL's Avatar Yearly Subscriber
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    Hello Roy!

    There is much satisfaction, I imagine, in being able to do such work! -I can see being solely a virtual modeler, when the results of a days work can be reviewed, and kept safe, stored and retrieved indefinitely. Being able to check for fit, and discover "crashing" issues. (when two parts are occupying the same space) You can of course more easily take your work with you, and even work remotely? I assume?

    Thank you for sharing!

    Here in America, it is a tradition to bring the teacher an apple.

    Delage 15-S-8 Grand Prix (1/8)-apple-teacher-copy-jpg

    HAPPY NEW YEAR!

    -Don
    -craftsmanship is a lifelong project of
    self-construction and self determination
    QUOTE QUOTE #23

  8. MODEL A MODEL's Avatar Yearly Subscriber
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    Hello Roy!

    I just visited the Revs Institute! -and I cannot recommend it too much! Their site has done a very nice job of documenting their collection, everybody should check them out! A Hispano Suisa chassis, Cunningham C-4RK, Weslake Eagle, . . . all photographed beautifully! Just as all motor collections should be!

    Thank you! for the tip.

    -Don



    https://revsinstitute.org
    Last edited by MODEL A MODEL; 01-06-19 at 02:39 PM.
    -craftsmanship is a lifelong project of
    self-construction and self determination
    QUOTE QUOTE #24

  9. Roy vd M.'s Avatar Active Member
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    Hi Don, yes if something (finally) works it often leads to relief and excitement.

    Designing virtual models is even seen as an independently viable hobby! See the beautiful works of Mr Witold Jaworski, click here.

    [I]
    Being able to check for fit, and discover "crashing" issues. (when two parts are occupying the same space)
    [/I]Yes that is a very important reason why I will try to draw the whole model. Once finished I have all measures that should lead to a scale model without such 'crashing' problems.

    You can of course more easily take your work with you, and even work remotely?
    Both yes.

    But of course in my case I am making this drawing just to enable the scale modelling. Eventually I will need to be at my own workbench :)

    Regarding Revs Institute, be assured that the cars are much more impressive (especially in each other's vicinity) than on the pictures. I hope one day you'll visit and see them yourself. I do appreciate you taking the time to have a look at their nice website!

    - - -

    On my 1/8th scale model I intend to implement functional braking, including drum brakes that are actuated by brake shoes with some sort of brake lining. The only thing I won't try to replicate is the mechanical servo, as I don't want to fit the model with a motor. But the plan is to have brake pedal pressing result into actuated drum brakes.


    I also would like the handbrake to be functional, so that I can have rotating wheels installed on the car which I'll be able to block so that the model won't roll whenever on a sloped surface.


    Finally I want to have a functional gas pedal-to-carburettor linkage.


    The last couple of days I spent starting the sorting and categorising all pictures and videos (defragmenting them) I have collected. As this is fairly boresome, at the same time I did research on all the linkages on the left side of the gearbox and engine. At first glance it looks like a daunting and complex assembly:





    But once the rods and arms are individualized and marked (I used Gimp for that), comparing with photos and videos, it becomes clear what is what:





    Let's watch this in detail.





    The light green rods are for the brake system. The left rod is actuated by the brake pedal (other side of the engine). It pulls the 'clutch' for the mechanical brake drum (=the wheel on the right side of the photo). That wheel is then driven by the propeller shaft, but only for a partly rotation. Through that rotation, the light green rod to the right is pulled. This energy is distributed to the four drum brakes of the car.


    The dark green rod is for the handbrake.


    The dark blue linkage is connected to the gas pedal, as well as a lever with a knob that arises above the gearbox body. I guess that lever is used to control the stationary RPM of the engine.


    [B]I do not know what the light blue rod is for. It might be a gearbox support strut. [/B]


    Finally the olive coloured rods. They appear to be linked (only) to a lever situated next to the previously discussed stationary RPM-lever. [B]The olive rods are connected to something at the engine side. I don't know what this is for. [/B]





    Here the dark blue linkage to the carburettor, as well as [B]the olive rod. I don't know what this rod is connected to (=what the lever is used for). [/B]





    And finally the utmost connection to the carburettor.


    If any of you have any thoughts about the above, especially the items in bolt, I'd much welcome them.


    Delage 15-S-8 Grand Prix (1/8)
    Last edited by Roy vd M.; 01-06-19 at 01:15 PM.
    QUOTE QUOTE #25

  10. MODEL A MODEL's Avatar Yearly Subscriber
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    Wow!

    This is great! You really do know how to research a project! -could the pale blue line be a cable? a sprung cable to return the throttle to idle?

    Thank you for sharing this! - I am sure as more and more members of this forum start to read this thread, you'll have all sorts of expertise brought to bare. I am sure we have more than one or two mechanical engineers, and of course car nuts are everywhere!

    I like your passion for the process of problem solving. Bit by bit.

    -Don

    PS- The light blue line looks to connect to a "Pie slice" shaped belcrank?
    Last edited by MODEL A MODEL; 01-06-19 at 02:32 PM.
    -craftsmanship is a lifelong project of
    self-construction and self determination
    QUOTE QUOTE #26

  11. Roy vd M.'s Avatar Active Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by MODEL A MODEL View Post
    Wow! This is great! You really do know how to research a project!
    I'll agree with Roger on this aspect... like him, I have plenty of patience

    -could the pale blue line be a cable? a sprung cable to return the throttle to idle?
    Studying the footage better I have noticed that this rod might actually be actuated by the handbrake! I'll have another look at the videos and pictures and will eventually come back to this.

    Thank you for sharing this! - I am sure as more and more members of this forum start to read this thread, you'll have all sorts of expertise brought to bare. I am sure we have more than one or two mechanical engineers, and of course car nuts are everywhere!
    They sure are lol. I hope this thread and its beautiful subject allures to the forum members :)

    I like your passion for the process of problem solving. Bit by bit.
    Yeah; but mostly, v....e.....r......y..... s.....l......o.......w.......l......y!

    I found a drawing in Pomeroy's book, made by Cresswell who had full access to a dismantled engine:





    Detail:





    Clicking those images will make them pop, slightly.


    I think I see an ever so tiny camshaft down there, with one single cam. Looks like a kind of valve...? Any ideas are welcome.


    Delage 15-S-8 Grand Prix (1/8)
    Last edited by Roy vd M.; 01-06-19 at 09:39 PM.
    QUOTE QUOTE #27

  12. Nortley's Avatar VIP/Sponsor
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    Manual adjustment for return oil flow from the cooler?
    Last edited by Nortley; 01-24-19 at 10:00 PM.
    Scorpio - Builds models the way the prototype should have been built.
    QUOTE QUOTE #28

  13. Roger Zimmermann's Avatar Yearly Subscriber
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    Unfortunately, I cannot help a lot here as I never had a great interest to those years. What I see from the very nice drawings you published: almost everything can be done on a scale model because everything is mechanical (try to make working hydraulic brakes!). At that time, the ignition point could be manually modified; this could be one of the levers you don't know the usage.
    Working only on the base of pictures is extremely difficult I was glad that, while doing the wood mockup for the body, I could visually compared it the the real car. Many corrections were needed after!
    QUOTE QUOTE #29

  14. MODEL A MODEL's Avatar Yearly Subscriber
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    Hello Roy,

    You probably have seen this video, you are so well connected, but in case you have not, and for other viewers of you build, I believe that this demonstrates some of the qualities that you aspire to?



    -and in it there are a few ideas for the rest of us. (I find this level of craftsmanship fascinating!)
    Last edited by MODEL A MODEL; 01-24-19 at 09:22 PM.
    -craftsmanship is a lifelong project of
    self-construction and self determination
    QUOTE QUOTE #30

  15. Roger Zimmermann's Avatar Yearly Subscriber
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    This is for watches costing $99.99!
    Interesting description how some operations are done.
    QUOTE QUOTE #31

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