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    1. Kit: Pocher, by (Active Member) jrhaddock is offline
      Builder Last Online: Jun 2018 Show Printable Version Email this Page
      Model Scale: 1/8 Rating:  (1 votes - 5.00 average) Thanks: 5
      Started: 01-21-16 Build Revisions: Never  
      Supported Kit Bashed Includes Transkit Attribution
      Build in Progress

      GURNEY NUTTING RR PHANTOM II FAUX CABRIOLET
      CLOSET MODELING

      BUILD THREAD
      Even though it’s not something I’ve done before, I’ve been thinking of starting a build thread for my next model.
      The model will be of a 1933 Gurney Nutting RR Phantom II and will be based on the Pocher RR Sedanca kit. However, I have a large number of changes and scratch-built elements planned so this particular build experience may prove useful to others.
      In addition I now winter in Florida and so my modeling space there is restricted to a roughly 5’ x 5’ walk-in closet. There’s a limited array of tools there and no easy way to paint anything, so construction will be a bit of a challenge. But then I’m not alone in having limited modeling space and believe you don’t need a full blown workshop to do some serious modeling. So why not give it a try?

      GURNEY NUTTING
      Gurney Nutting was one of the pre-eminent pre-WW II coachbuilders using the Rolls-Royce chassis. Their sleek designs on the shortened Continental chassis were particularly attractive and were the basis for the Pocher Rolls-Royce Sedanca model.

      1933 FAUX-CABRIOLET
      In my opinion, one of their most attractive creations was this faux-cabriolet built in 1933 for Sir Hugo Cunliffe-Owen, chairman of the British-American Tobacco Company:
      Gurney Nutting RR Phantom II Faux Cabriolet-1933-rrphantomii-gn-fauxcab-1-jpg
      It’s a particularly sleek and handsome design which conveys both flair and respectability, something that’s not easy to achieve. It was built on the shorter Continental Phantom II chassis and, despite the appearance, the roof does not fold back, (hence faux-cabriolet) but, instead, has a sunroof.

      PLATFORM
      The Pocher RR kits all use the 144” wheelbase Continental chassis so the Sedanca kit would make a good starting point. A few years ago, I had purchased two partially completed (and abandoned) model Sedanacas so they can be the platform for this model.
      I like my models to be replicas; that is historically accurate versions of the original vehicle. That means adding lots of detail and correcting the inaccuracies in the Pocher kits. So this will not be an ordinary Pocher build, quite the opposite.

      CHALLENGES & SOLUTIONS
      Below is the picture on the Pocher RR Sedanca box and, as you can see, the most glaring external differences are the fenders, trunk (or boot) and the spare wheels.
      Gurney Nutting RR Phantom II Faux Cabriolet-pocher-jpg
      Fortunately, Model Motor Cars sells a set of resin Gurney Nutting RR Phantom II Faux Cabriolet fenders for the Amabassador kit. Those fenders are very similar to those on the Gurney Nutting faux cabriolet and I just happen to have a set. So, with some modification, they should be suitable.
      I’ve also been experimenting with 3D printing of parts so I’m confident 3D printing can take care of the spare wheel covers.
      The roof profile is slightly different and the belt line higher, but I figure I can modify the Pocher body to match. And those of you with eagle eyes will note that there are five louvers on the Pocher body, but seven on the Gurney Nutting body. However, with two kit bodies at hand and some cutting and splicing I should be able to get that fixed.

      DIFFERENCES vs. THE POCHER KIT
      Pocher mixed up different generations of Phantom IIs in their kits. So, one of the steps will be to make sure the build will include the correct features for the date on which the prototype was built. The chassis number is 170MY and it came ‘off-test’ (i.e. the chassis was complete) on May 5th, 1933.

      The Pocher engine will require significant modifications as well as the addition of many super-details (such as control linkages) missing from the kit. However many of the individual changes are in a series of build notes that are available on my website at www.jrhscalecars.com under the Phantom II tab. So, at least, I’m very familiar with what has to be done.
      Gurney Nutting RR Phantom II Faux Cabriolet-1933-rrphantomii-gn-fauxcab-2-jpg
      One of the most noticeable changes is the third generation semi-expanding carburetor with its big air cleaner. Fortunately I had built one for my Figoni & Falaschi RR model. I can build another and I now have the option of using 3D printing.
      In the photo you may also have noticed the two vertical cylinders on the left hand side of the firewall next to the steering column. Those are remote hydraulic adjusters for the Andre Hartford friction shock absorbers. The adjustment was by means of a knob on the dashboard. The Hartfords were installed in addition to the regular shock absorbers and were designed to reduce sway when driving at high speed. Indeed, in the original RR factory build notes for this car it states that it will be used “in the UK. Mainly fast touring”. The Figoni & Falaschi RR was also fitted with Hartford shocks (although not with remote adjustment) and I had installed those on the model. They really shouldn’t be too much of a challenge. Of course, it’s not entirely clear how the hydraulic cylinders are mounted, but I’ll figure something out as I go along.
      It’s not obvious, but the engine has a torque reaction damper mounted between the front of the engine and the radiator. This was left out of the Pocher kit, primarily because the Pocher radiator is too thick. So the radiator will get slimmed down and the damper assembly and its related cross-member added.
      Also, the front shock absorber design used in the Pocher kit was not introduced by RR until July 1933, so this model should have the earlier, vertical-type front shock absorbers that were mounted on the inside of the chassis rails. 3D printing will help with them too.
      This generation of the Phantom II came equipped with the smaller 20 gal (Imp) fuel tank, not the 28 gal tank provided in the Pocher kits. However I had scratch built Gurney Nutting RR Phantom II Faux Cabriolet the smaller tank for my Figoni & Falaschi RR model so I could do so again, although I’ll probably try a 3D printed version first.

      Bottom line is that there are a whole bunch of corrections to make and details to add, but no obvious ‘stoppers’. It will be just a matter of time, patience and application.

      Still, let me know what you think.
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  1. sjordan's Avatar VIP/Sponsor
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    Skip
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    Looks like that would be an easy conversion with Revell Gurney Nutting RR Phantom II Faux Cabriolet 's 1/16 PII Continental.
    QUOTE QUOTE #2

  2. jrhaddock's Avatar Active Member
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    John
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    Yes, you're right.
    But, of course, Revell Gurney Nutting RR Phantom II Faux Cabriolet 's kit is 1/16th and I already have the 1/8th Pocher kits!!


    Gurney Nutting RR Phantom II Faux Cabriolet
    QUOTE QUOTE #3

  3. Haddewade's Avatar Yearly Subscriber
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    Looking foward to it.
    QUOTE QUOTE #4

  4. jrhaddock's Avatar Active Member
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    Gurney Nutting RR Phantom II Faux Cabriolet
    Update
    There are a lot of ways to tackle a project like this, but my own preference is to look at the most challenging bits first. Once you have those figured out or, at least, you are confident you can do them, the rest of the project is one you can enjoy. With this approach, if you run into serious trouble, you can always abort early without having invested a huge amount of time and effort. Sometimes your appetite really is bigger than your stomach.
    For me, the five most immediate questions are:
    Will the Model Motor Cars fenders fit and can they be modified to match the GN fenders?
    What’s the best way to make the wheel covers for the spare wheels?
    What’s the best way to make the trunk and hinged lid?
    How straightforward will it be to modify the rear windows and the body belt line?
    Will it be necessary to fabricate a new roof or can the Pocher roof be extended?

    Fenders
    Here’s a picture of the Model Motor Cars version of the Sedanca ,model showcasing their fenders:
    Gurney Nutting RR Phantom II Faux Cabriolet-pocher-rolls-mml1-reversed-jpg


    And here’s the faux cabriolet:

    Gurney Nutting RR Phantom II Faux Cabriolet-fauxcab-forcomp-jpg

    The MMC fender obviously fits the Sedanca chassis, but the rear of the fender is flaring up too high, the fender doesn’t ‘hood’ the front and rear wheels enough and the faux cabriolet has a longer, flatter, smoother curve from the rear of the running board forward. Still, using the Model Motor Cars fender will save a ton of time so I’m hoping that some cutting and slotting of the reinforcing ribs and the addition of some body filler will get me the shape I need.


    Gurney Nutting RR Phantom II Faux Cabriolet
    QUOTE QUOTE #5

  5. broadspeed's Avatar Active Member
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    michel
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    why not make some molds and vacuform them ,, same for the wheel covers ? :-) ,, or go full out and make them in brass
    QUOTE QUOTE #6

  6. Egon's Avatar Moderator
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    Gurney Nutting RR Phantom II Faux Cabriolet
    I think MMC's fenders are from the Ambassador, they have a gab in the rear of 12 mm to follow the center.
    Attached Images Attached Images Gurney Nutting RR Phantom II Faux Cabriolet-rear-jpg Gurney Nutting RR Phantom II Faux Cabriolet-front-jpg Gurney Nutting RR Phantom II Faux Cabriolet-rr-jpg 
    Last edited by Egon; 01-24-16 at 06:44 PM.
    QUOTE QUOTE #7

  7. Pouln's Avatar Yearly Subscriber
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    Poul
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    Interesting. Will be following your build. Looks like you will be creating a fine model.
    Greetings,

    Poul
    QUOTE QUOTE #8

  8. jrhaddock's Avatar Active Member
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    John
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    Broadspeed;

    First off, my 'brass' skills are not very good and I don't have the tools. Bending and folding and modest reshaping I can do, but not the deep drawing needed for fenders and wheel covers. Same thing with vacuum molding. However, I did use resin Gurney Nutting RR Phantom II Faux Cabriolet molding for the fenders for my Figoni & Falaschi RR Phantom model and that worked very well. But I had the Ambassador fenders so I thought I'd try to use them. Using them would be much cheaper than making silicone molds and much more compatible with my very small winter modeling space. I'll post a note on the progress I've made.


    Gurney Nutting RR Phantom II Faux Cabriolet
    QUOTE QUOTE #9

  9. jrhaddock's Avatar Active Member
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    Gurney Nutting RR Phantom II Faux Cabriolet
    My last entry highlighted that one of the biggest challenges was reshaping the fenders. Egon's post captured that challenge quite nicely.

    Here’s a picture showing 170MY profile compared to the stripped down chassis with some of the Pocher body and the Model Motor Cars fender mounted to it. The red lines are outlines from the Gurney Nutting side profile and show what’s needed:

    Gurney Nutting RR Phantom II Faux Cabriolet-170myvspochercomp-jpg
    As you can see, the profile comparison confirms my earlier suspicions.

    Some judicious slotting of the walls of the running board and front fender should let me reshape the front fender to match the 170MY profile. It’s such a beautiful, long, sweeping shape that I really don’t want to give it up. The front of the fender may be OK. It does look shorter on 170MY, but that may just be the difference in perspective between the two photos.
    The rear fender has more height, but I think body filler can take care of that.
    The firewall end of the bonnet is also too high, by about 3 – 4 mm. But that’s always been an issue with Pocher Sedancas. I was going to modify (and lower) the firewall anyway. With that done, lowering the front of the body by those few millimeters should be straightforward.
    The doors are a different issue. They need to be several millimeters longer. And the lower front profile is also quite different. Of course, any changes to the doors mean changes to the interior door panels as well. Modify or make new ones? I haven’t decided.
    The bonnet will work (with some minor mods) but the louvers on the body are out of alignment with those on the sides of the bonnet. That will get even worse when I lower the front of the body. There are also seven louvers on 170MY vs. five on the Sedanca. Changing all that will be fun!!
    The Pocher roof heights, at both the windshield and B pillar, seem OK. But the rear roof profile needs to be squarer. I’ll figure out how to fix that later.
    The boot (trunk) in the lower picture is my first attempt at a 3D printed version. The profile was taken from other photos and was a bit of a guess. Looks like my guess was wrong. The wall thicknesses were also too thin and needed stiffening so a revised 3D print should take care of that as well as correct the profile.

    So, no real surprises, just work!


    Gurney Nutting RR Phantom II Faux Cabriolet
    Attached Images Attached Images Gurney Nutting RR Phantom II Faux Cabriolet-170myvspocher-jpg 
    QUOTE QUOTE #10

  10. jrhaddock's Avatar Active Member
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    Gurney Nutting RR Phantom II Faux Cabriolet
    Fender Changes
    In my last post I mentioned slotting the Ambassador fenders from MML as a way to change their profile.
    Here are some pictures showing the slots:
    Gurney Nutting RR Phantom II Faux Cabriolet-img_0055comp-jpg
    The side wall (at the back) was also separated from the fender.
    Gurney Nutting RR Phantom II Faux Cabriolet-img_0057comp-jpg
    Most of the rear wall of the fender was also removed.

    It was now possible to reshape the fender and hold it in place with 4 or 5 bolts. The new shape is now much closer to that of the prototype.

    Gurney Nutting RR Phantom II Faux Cabriolet-img_0054comp-jpg
    Most of the rear wall of the fender was also removed.

    It was now possible to reshape the fender and hold it in place with 4 or 5 bolts. The new shape is now much closer to that of the prototype.
    Gurney Nutting RR Phantom II Faux Cabriolet-mml-fender-mods-vs-170mycomp-jpg
    There are still a few minor adjustments to make, especially just below the louvers, but it’s looking much better.
    However, slotting the front fender has weakened it. It’s also unlikely that glue and/or resin Gurney Nutting RR Phantom II Faux Cabriolet filler will be strong enough to hold the new profile without cracking. So I’ve decided to use brass reinforcing strips on the insides of the fender edges to hold its shape and take any bending stresses. The resin Gurney Nutting RR Phantom II Faux Cabriolet filler used to fill and repair the slots will then be mainly cosmetic.

    Here is one of the strips lying on the paper template I used to check the curve:
    Gurney Nutting RR Phantom II Faux Cabriolet-img_0059comp-jpg
    The strip is brass 1mm x 6mm and from K&S Gurney Nutting RR Phantom II Faux Cabriolet .
    Eventually, the width of the strip will be ground down to match the fender sidewall height.

    Next
    Once the fender is reshaped and the slots filled, the attachment to the body will need to be finalized. That requires that the body position be set. That will be the subject of my next post.


    Gurney Nutting RR Phantom II Faux Cabriolet
    QUOTE QUOTE #11

  11. Jo NZ's Avatar Yearly Subscriber
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    I've been using cyano as a bonder and filler on Pocher bodies. A good quality thick version should work well. It files and sands well, and most importantly doesn't shrink when painted. If you need more bulk in the glue, mix with a filler such as talc.

    Having said that, I would also reinforce with brass strips....
    QUOTE QUOTE #12

  12. jrhaddock's Avatar Active Member
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    Gurney Nutting RR Phantom II Faux Cabriolet
    Since my last post, over two months ago, I've made slow but steady progress with the body and fenders. In summary;
    - the front of the body has been lowered 3mm.
    - the Ambassador resin Gurney Nutting RR Phantom II Faux Cabriolet fenders were re-profiled to match the prototype, including adding 5mm to the height of the rear fenders.
    - the rear of the roof has been raised 5mm and the rectangular rear window filled in, in preparation for adding two oval rear windows
    - the fixed front roof was 3D printed and, temporarily pegged in place
    - a revised boot (trunk) and lid were 3D printed
    - two spare wheel covers were 3D printed (each will accommodate a Pocher RR wire wheel
    - the unique (false) cabriolet roof was also 3D printed. It will be added as an overlay to the modified Pocher roof
    Here's a picture that compares the prototype with progress of the model. Subsequent posts will go into more detail.
    Gurney Nutting RR Phantom II Faux Cabriolet-170my-vs-model-4-12-16cmp-jpg


    Gurney Nutting RR Phantom II Faux Cabriolet
    QUOTE QUOTE #13

  13. broadspeed's Avatar Active Member
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    looking very good , you will have a stunning model when it is finished
    QUOTE QUOTE #14

  14. jrhaddock's Avatar Active Member
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    Gurney Nutting RR Phantom II Faux Cabriolet
    In a previous post I highlighted the fact that, on the Pocher model, the firewall end of the bonnet was too high by about 3 – 4 mm compared to the Gurney Nutting prototype. Since I was planning to modify the firewall anyway, there would be room to lower the front of the body by 3mm and improve the side profile for the bonnet.

    The first step was to cut away the top of the body support bracket shown on the left in the following picture:
    Gurney Nutting RR Phantom II Faux Cabriolet-loweringbody1-jpg
    Then two new brass supports were added. The one on the left hand side is shown in the photo. These anchor the front of the floor to the chassis.
    The rear of the floor is also bolted to the chassis as seen below:
    Gurney Nutting RR Phantom II Faux Cabriolet-img_0082-jpg


    With the front lowered 3mm, I started work on raising the rear of the roof 5mm. This gives a squarer profile than the Sedanca, which is consistent with the prototype. The change consisted of sawing off the top and inserting a styrene Gurney Nutting RR Phantom II Faux Cabriolet fill piece. Rather than glue everything back together immediately, I used .025" piano wire to peg the revised top to the rest of the body.
    Gurney Nutting RR Phantom II Faux Cabriolet-img_0090revcrp-jpg

    Gurney Nutting RR Phantom II Faux Cabriolet-img_0219crp-jpg
    The roof ribs and the bosses for the roof hinge have been removed and holes and sinks filled. New bosses will be added later.

    The addition of a 3D printed fixed front roof completes the reprofile:
    Gurney Nutting RR Phantom II Faux Cabriolet-img_0221crpd-jpg

    Once the roof line was correct, it was possible to 3D print the fake cabriolet roof in nylon. It wraps over the roof.
    Gurney Nutting RR Phantom II Faux Cabriolet-img_0222crpd-jpg
    In this photo it's just possible to make out one of the styrene Gurney Nutting RR Phantom II Faux Cabriolet pegs that hold the roof covering in place.


    Gurney Nutting RR Phantom II Faux Cabriolet
    QUOTE QUOTE #15

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