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    1. Kit: Pocher, by (Active Member) jrhaddock is offline
      Builder Last Online: Dec 2018 Show Printable Version Email this Page
      Model Scale: 1/8 Rating:  (1 votes - 5.00 average) Thanks: 5
      Started: 01-21-16 Build Revisions: Never  
      Supported Kit Bashed Includes Transkit Attribution
      Build in Progress

      [B]GURNEY NUTTING RR PHANTOM II FAUX CABRIOLET[/B]
      [B]CLOSET MODELING[/B]

      [B]BUILD THREAD[/B]
      Even though it’s not something I’ve done before, I’ve been thinking of starting a build thread for my next model.
      The model will be of a 1933 Gurney Nutting RR Phantom II and will be based on the Pocher RR Sedanca kit. However, I have a large number of changes and scratch-built elements planned so this particular build experience may prove useful to others.
      In addition I now winter in Florida and so my modeling space there is restricted to a roughly 5’ x 5’ walk-in closet. There’s a limited array of tools there and no easy way to paint anything, so construction will be a bit of a challenge. But then I’m not alone in having limited modeling space and believe you don’t need a full blown workshop to do some serious modeling. So why not give it a try?

      [B]GURNEY NUTTING[/B]
      Gurney Nutting was one of the pre-eminent pre-WW II coachbuilders using the Rolls-Royce chassis. Their sleek designs on the shortened Continental chassis were particularly attractive and were the basis for the Pocher Rolls-Royce Sedanca model.

      [B]1933 FAUX-CABRIOLET[/B]
      In my opinion, one of their most attractive creations was this faux-cabriolet built in 1933 for Sir Hugo Cunliffe-Owen, chairman of the British-American Tobacco Company:
      Gurney Nutting RR Phantom II Faux Cabriolet-1933-rrphantomii-gn-fauxcab-1-jpg
      It’s a particularly sleek and handsome design which conveys both flair and respectability, something that’s not easy to achieve. It was built on the shorter Continental Phantom II chassis and, despite the appearance, the roof does not fold back, (hence faux-cabriolet) but, instead, has a sunroof.

      [B]PLATFORM[/B]
      The Pocher RR kits all use the 144” wheelbase Continental chassis so the Sedanca kit would make a good starting point. A few years ago, I had purchased two partially completed (and abandoned) model Sedanacas so they can be the platform for this model.
      I like my models to be replicas; that is historically accurate versions of the original vehicle. That means adding lots of detail and correcting the inaccuracies in the Pocher kits. So this will not be an ordinary Pocher build, quite the opposite.

      [B]CHALLENGES & SOLUTIONS[/B]
      Below is the picture on the Pocher RR Sedanca box and, as you can see, the most glaring external differences are the fenders, trunk (or boot) and the spare wheels.
      Gurney Nutting RR Phantom II Faux Cabriolet-pocher-jpg
      Fortunately, Model Motor Cars sells a set of resin Gurney Nutting RR Phantom II Faux Cabriolet fenders for the Amabassador kit. Those fenders are very similar to those on the Gurney Nutting faux cabriolet and I just happen to have a set. So, with some modification, they should be suitable.
      I’ve also been experimenting with 3D printing of parts so I’m confident 3D printing can take care of the spare wheel covers.
      The roof profile is slightly different and the belt line higher, but I figure I can modify the Pocher body to match. And those of you with eagle eyes will note that there are five louvers on the Pocher body, but seven on the Gurney Nutting body. However, with two kit bodies at hand and some cutting and splicing I should be able to get that fixed.

      [B]DIFFERENCES vs. THE POCHER KIT[/B]
      Pocher mixed up different generations of Phantom IIs in their kits. So, one of the steps will be to make sure the build will include the correct features for the date on which the prototype was built. The chassis number is 170MY and it came ‘off-test’ (i.e. the chassis was complete) on May 5[SUP]th[/SUP], 1933.

      The Pocher engine will require significant modifications as well as the addition of many super-details (such as control linkages) missing from the kit. However many of the individual changes are in a series of build notes that are available on my website at www.jrhscalecars.com under the Phantom II tab. So, at least, I’m very familiar with what has to be done.
      Gurney Nutting RR Phantom II Faux Cabriolet-1933-rrphantomii-gn-fauxcab-2-jpg
      One of the most noticeable changes is the third generation semi-expanding carburetor with its big air cleaner. Fortunately I had built one for my Figoni & Falaschi RR model. I can build another and I now have the option of using 3D printing.
      In the photo you may also have noticed the two vertical cylinders on the left hand side of the firewall next to the steering column. Those are remote hydraulic adjusters for the Andre Hartford friction shock absorbers. The adjustment was by means of a knob on the dashboard. The Hartfords were installed in addition to the regular shock absorbers and were designed to reduce sway when driving at high speed. Indeed, in the original RR factory build notes for this car it states that it will be used “in the UK. Mainly fast touring”. The Figoni & Falaschi RR was also fitted with Hartford shocks (although not with remote adjustment) and I had installed those on the model. They really shouldn’t be too much of a challenge. Of course, it’s not entirely clear how the hydraulic cylinders are mounted, but I’ll figure something out as I go along.
      It’s not obvious, but the engine has a torque reaction damper mounted between the front of the engine and the radiator. This was left out of the Pocher kit, primarily because the Pocher radiator is too thick. So the radiator will get slimmed down and the damper assembly and its related cross-member added.
      Also, the front shock absorber design used in the Pocher kit was not introduced by RR until July 1933, so this model should have the earlier, vertical-type front shock absorbers that were mounted on the inside of the chassis rails. 3D printing will help with them too.
      This generation of the Phantom II came equipped with the smaller 20 gal (Imp) fuel tank, not the 28 gal tank provided in the Pocher kits. However I had scratch built Gurney Nutting RR Phantom II Faux Cabriolet the smaller tank for my Figoni & Falaschi RR model so I could do so again, although I’ll probably try a 3D printed version first.

      Bottom line is that there are a whole bunch of corrections to make and details to add, but no obvious ‘stoppers’. It will be just a matter of time, patience and application.

      Still, let me know what you think.


      Gurney Nutting RR Phantom II Faux Cabriolet
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  1. ScaleMotorcars's Avatar Administrator
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    Daniel
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    Amazing work.

    Can I ask what 3d software and printer your using?
    QUOTE QUOTE #32

  2. jrhaddock's Avatar Active Member
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    John
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    The CAD drawings of the parts are all done with Rhino 5. The software is somewhat expensive, but is particularly good for three dimensional curved surfaces. I convert the Rhino files to STL files within Rhino. The 3D printing is done for me by Shapeways (www.shapeways.com). Depending on the part (and application) I've had parts made in nylon (typical), acrylic (for excellent surface finish) and brass (for strength). I didn't feel comfortable, at least initially, buying my own printer and tackling all that, hence my use of Shapeways.
    For what it's worth, I posted some thoughts on 3D printing on my website at: http://www.jrhscalecars.com/Tools3DPrinting.html. They may be helpful.


    Gurney Nutting RR Phantom II Faux Cabriolet
    QUOTE QUOTE #33

  3. jrhaddock's Avatar Active Member
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    John
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    There are days when plowing the same field seems like drudgery. So it is with modeling. To combat this, I'll sometimes shift focus and work on some other part of the model. It helps maintain enthusiasm and also provides some perspective on the work I've been doing.
    In the middle of rethinking/reworking the Pocher body I decided to tackle the aggravating problem of Pocher's weak leaf springs. On the donor model the rear springs were a particular disaster. They has assumed an 'S' shape and, in order to support the weight of the body, had been supplemented with some spiral springs. The reasonable solution was to fabricate new leaf springs from brass. Here's the result:

    Gurney Nutting RR Phantom II Faux Cabriolet-img_0153cmp-jpg
    The brass is K&S Gurney Nutting RR Phantom II Faux Cabriolet strip. Their 1/32" x 1/4" stock strip is almost identical to the RR leaves. You could also use their 1 mm x 6 mm strip. I used the same number of leaves, ten, as the standard RR. The overall thickness then comes out very close to the RR drawings. Once the springs are assembled they are pretty rigid, but you can still shape them and so adjust the clearance of the body over the wheels.
    The springs aren't quite correct since the RR Continentals used double thickness leaves with just 5 leaves in each set.
    But when the gaiters (black heat shrink tubing) are added I doubt it will matter.
    The spring clamps are 1/8" wide and were 3D printed to get their characteristic triangular shape. Then the ends were drilled out and 00-90 Gurney Nutting RR Phantom II Faux Cabriolet
    studs glued in place. The clamp plates are made from 1/8" x 1/32" strip. The center bolt is 0-80 Gurney Nutting RR Phantom II Faux Cabriolet
    . As you can see slots were ground into both sides of the center of the spring assembly. These take the Pocher U bolts and mesh with the Pocher mounting.




    Gurney Nutting RR Phantom II Faux Cabriolet
    Last edited by jrhaddock; 05-10-16 at 09:44 PM.
    QUOTE QUOTE #34

  4. Pouln's Avatar Yearly Subscriber
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    Poul
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    Wonderful details for the rear seats. Love it. Thanks for explaining the building of the leaf springs. Goin to try this too.
    Greetings,

    Poul
    QUOTE QUOTE #35

  5. jrhaddock's Avatar Active Member
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    John
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    Since my last post, three weeks ago, I've finalized the floor, decided on how to bolt the floor to the chassis and how to bolt the body to the floor.
    First the floor. Here are some pictures of the completed floor:
    Gurney Nutting RR Phantom II Faux Cabriolet-img_9353comp-jpgGurney Nutting RR Phantom II Faux Cabriolet-img_9357comp-jpgGurney Nutting RR Phantom II Faux Cabriolet-img_9359comp-jpg
    The black insert is the footwell for the rear seats. It's a 3D printed piece spliced into the body of the floor, but it could have been made from styrene Gurney Nutting RR Phantom II Faux Cabriolet sheet and tube. On the underside of the floor you can see the styrene Gurney Nutting RR Phantom II Faux Cabriolet tube spacers that raise the floor above the chassis. The spacers are 6mm at the front, to accommodate the gear change shaft, and 2mm at the rear to clear the cross members. I've also added the side skirts and stiffeners. The inside edge of the stiffeners are designed to be a push fit over the outside of the chassis rails.
    Here are a couple of pictures of the top of the floor showing the location of the bolts holding the floor to the chassis, as well as other details. The bolts are countersunk by 1mm.
    Gurney Nutting RR Phantom II Faux Cabriolet-frontoffloor-jpgGurney Nutting RR Phantom II Faux Cabriolet-rearoffloor-1-jpg

    The body is bolted to the floor by two brackets at the front and two brackets at the back. The rear brackets are shown in the picture above and here's a picture of the front bracket:
    Gurney Nutting RR Phantom II Faux Cabriolet-img_9362-jpg
    With the body in place, you can just see the front bracket here:
    Gurney Nutting RR Phantom II Faux Cabriolet-img_9392comp-jpg

    So with the floor firmly bolted to the chassis and the body bolted to the floor, the fenders can be also be firmly attached to verify everything fits. Well, of course, some adjustments were necessary and I'll go into some of those in a later post. Notably, the bonnet sides had to be substantially modified and are still only partially complete. Nevertheless, as this picture shows, the model is coming together:
    Gurney Nutting RR Phantom II Faux Cabriolet-sideprofile1-jpg

    As you may also note from the picture, the front seats backs arrived and so I was able to complete the seat hinges. I'll post some pictures of the front seats later. But, more immediately I'm focused on completing the fenders on the right hand side and making more changes to the bonnet sides. That involves cutting out and moving louvers so there's more to follow on that.
    Now it's back to work!


    Gurney Nutting RR Phantom II Faux Cabriolet
    QUOTE QUOTE #36

  6. jrhaddock's Avatar Active Member
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    John
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    One of the big advantages of taking lots of photographs of your model under construction is that it highlights problem areas. This is especially true if you have reasonable pattern recognition skills! Here's a side-by-side comparison of the model with the prototype:
    Gurney Nutting RR Phantom II Faux Cabriolet-profilecomparisons-jpg
    A couple of things stand out. First off, I've filled the trafficator slots in the body. That looks right.
    Second, the sides of the faux-cabriolet roof look too low. Probably only 2 or 3 mm, but it's affecting the balance of the body line. And, although it's not obvious, the faux-cabriolet roof sits a little too low over the trunk, again about 2 mm. So now I'm thinking of re-doing the faux roof. But it will be a while before I get to that!
    Thirdly, and more importantly, the louvers in the bonnet and on the side of the body don't match the Gurney Nutting arrangement. Once you look hard at the photo, it becomes blindingly obvious. The Pocher louvers extend too far back toward the doors and there are more louvers on the Gurney Nutting body. To match the Gurney Nutting profile, the last three louvers need to be removed from the bonnet. This makes sense since the larger flat area will be where the bulkhead sits. On the other hand, there are two few louvers in the Pocher body. As you can see the Gurney Nutting louver arrangement extends further back. So remove three louvers from the bonnet and add two to the body. Nothing could be simpler, right?
    Of course, when I took the photo, I'd already modified the Pocher bonnet sides to fit between the body and the radiator and also to align the louvers horizontally. The louvers don't match well on the model anyway, plus I'd lowered the front of the body by about 4mm which made the mismatch worse. Also for aesthetic reasons, the slope on the rear edge of the bonnet should match the slope on the louvers. It's clear that that is what Gurney Nutting did.
    One consequence of all these changes is that there is now a gap between the top of the bonnet side and the bonnet tops. This will have to be filled. Fixing that will all be part of adding piano hinges between the bonnet tops and sides instead of using the little Pocher hinges.
    Here's a comparison of the original Pocher bonnet side with my Gurney Nutting version. Three of the louvers have been removed and the hole filled with styrene Gurney Nutting RR Phantom II Faux Cabriolet sheet (2.5 mm thick). Two of the louvers will be used to extend the louvers on the body.
    Gurney Nutting RR Phantom II Faux Cabriolet-img_9400coimp-jpg
    The bottom of the bonnet panel has also been straightened to match the cover over the chassis rail. As mentioned, the rear edge has been re-profiled so it matches the slope of the louvers and also the slope on the front of the body. Less obviously, the raised area on the top of the panel has been flattened in preparation for increasing the height of the the bonnet panel.
    These next two pictures show the addition of two louvers to the body. Also, plainly visible, is the bracket that holds the body to the floor.
    Gurney Nutting RR Phantom II Faux Cabriolet-img_9407-jpgGurney Nutting RR Phantom II Faux Cabriolet-img_9403comp-jpg
    So far so good.


    Gurney Nutting RR Phantom II Faux Cabriolet
    QUOTE QUOTE #37

  7. jrhaddock's Avatar Active Member
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    In the previous post, I mentioned the modification to the bonnet side panel to match the chassis rail. Here's the chassis rail:
    Gurney Nutting RR Phantom II Faux Cabriolet-img_9421comp-jpg
    The fender is a highly modified version of Model Motor Cars resin Gurney Nutting RR Phantom II Faux Cabriolet fender. Unfortunately, the version I had didn't completely cover the rail and so looked awkward. Removing bosses on the side of the chassis rail, removing some material on the underside of the fender and drilling a 3/16" dia hole to provide clearance for the engine mounting bolts allowed a much better fit. That also let the fender match up better to the sides of the body. But the bonnet rail, molded into the fender, was too far towards the engine. So off it came, and a new rail was added from styrene Gurney Nutting RR Phantom II Faux Cabriolet L strip. At the same time I was able to add two bolts to hold the chassis rail cover flat and firmly in place. Mounted in the middle of the rail, they look as if they should be there!!
    And here's the same photo with the bonnet side in place:
    Gurney Nutting RR Phantom II Faux Cabriolet-img_9422comp-jpg

    Those of you with eagle eyes might have noticed that the radiator is different than the Pocher version. That's because it has been slimmed down to match actual prototypes and proper bonnet rub strips have been added (although they are still missing their canvas strapping). The slimmer radiator will let me add vertical front shock absorbers (correct for this version of the Phantom II) and the engine torque reaction dampers. The radiator mods will be the subject of another post.


    Gurney Nutting RR Phantom II Faux Cabriolet
    QUOTE QUOTE #38

  8. jrhaddock's Avatar Active Member
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    One final post, at least for now, on the body assembly. As previously mentioned, the floor is anchored to the chassis, and the body to the floor. The fenders are then mounted to both the body and the chassis. The result is a rock solid and stiff arrangement. The photograph below shows the mounting arrangement for the fender.
    In all cases, the goal was to have the mounting bolts hidden from view. I'm not a fan of Pocher's method of leaving screw heads exposed.
    Gurney Nutting RR Phantom II Faux Cabriolet-fender-mounting-1-jpg


    Gurney Nutting RR Phantom II Faux Cabriolet
    QUOTE QUOTE #39

  9. petert's Avatar Yearly Subscriber
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    Peter
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    Pocher
    Hi There
    I am also building the Pocher RR Sedanica and like you have found a lot of absent detail. I have a copy of your excellent web pages on the RR Phantom ll and found the drawings and photos extremely useful and have been able to produce a number of 3d printed parts to compliment the Pocher stock kit. These include the carburettor, Starting Carb, Fan Belt tensioner, ignition wiring tubes, Vacuum pump and many many linkages , arms, levers etc etc I am especially proud of my wiring loom bracket and tube which unlike the model motorcars Gurney Nutting RR Phantom II Faux Cabriolet resin Gurney Nutting RR Phantom II Faux Cabriolet piece is actually hollow enabling the ignition wires to pass through. I cant get onto your web site though is it still operating?? ( I find 3d printing an excellent substitute for a fully equipped worksop as like you, I am now limited to the dinning room table and the utility room for paint jobs.
    QUOTE QUOTE #40

  10. jrhaddock's Avatar Active Member
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    John
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    Wow, congratulations on all those 3D printed parts.
    I too had the wiring loom 3D printed. I'd forgotten that the MML resin Gurney Nutting RR Phantom II Faux Cabriolet parts wasn't hollow! Did you make yours on your own printer?

    My website is working. I just checked both Firefox (Mozilla) and IE browsers and the site loaded with no problem; www.jrhscalecars.com. I'm no computer expert, but maybe if you're using an old bookmark it needs to be updated. Please let me know if you continue to have problems.


    Gurney Nutting RR Phantom II Faux Cabriolet
    QUOTE QUOTE #41

  11. petert's Avatar Yearly Subscriber
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    Peter
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    Hi Again
    Got your site via a link, excellent work!

    If you have the time take a look at my 4 Posts, '' my latest project'' Pocher 540k Roadster, Mercedes 540k Finished and Pocher 3d Printed Parts. The 540k parts icluded spoked wire wheels which I thought would be very difficult to do but were in fact quite easy, the most difficult item I have drawn was the exhaust heated throttle pipe for the Rolls., I use Turbo Cad Professional as being a trained Draughtsman (old school) I find this easier than a graphics package, its not very good for compound curves though like you get on modern body shells, Might have a go at the vertical front shock absorbers next. I use shapeways too and find them very good apart from the postage costs which are a bit pricy for just one item, I try to order in a batch to keep the costs down. Have you tried any of the printed metal? I havn't as they are quite expensive and I was not sure of the finished result, cheers and once again excellent work!
    QUOTE QUOTE #42

  12. jrhaddock's Avatar Active Member
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    John
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    The M-B looks beautiful. The engine is so clean. Really nice work.
    Thanks for your compliments. The Pocher kits are such a great platform and the addition of missing detail seems to transform them. There's nothing comparable really for we hobbyists.
    Like you, I was trained in the old school ways of drafting so that has helped with the CAD / 3D printing learning curve. I've had parts printed in a variety of materials ... nylon, acrylic Gurney Nutting RR Phantom II Faux Cabriolet , steel and brass. As you know, nylon is substantially cheaper than the other materials so I use it whenever I can. Acrylic Gurney Nutting RR Phantom II Faux Cabriolet is more brittle, but smoother and easier to finish. I used brass for the front axle of the Austin Seven. The prototype axle was just over 1 inch square in cross-section despite taking all the load of the front of the vehicle and being the attachment point for various critical parts. In 1:8 scale, nylon was way too flexible (I tried it), acrylic Gurney Nutting RR Phantom II Faux Cabriolet too fragile. Unfortunately, the axle was too long to print in one piece, so left and right halves were printed, the ends drilled out for a brass rod and the assembly soldered together. Here's a picture of the soldered axle:
    Gurney Nutting RR Phantom II Faux Cabriolet-img_8905comp-jpg
    It proved to be very strong.
    In theory, it should be possible to fabricate the axle from brass strip and tube. But it's a complex assembly and would likely need some kind of sophisticated jig to keep all the pieces accurately in place during soldering. 3D printing took all those issues off the table.

    As for the RR, I have STL files for the front vertical-type shock absorbers.
    Gurney Nutting RR Phantom II Faux Cabriolet-shpwysprtscrn-jpg
    I'd be happy to send the STL files to you if they would be helpful. My email address is on the Contact page of my JrHScaleCars website.

    Now I realize I'm woefully behind in posting my latest progress on the Gurney Nutting RR. I need to post something this week. But thanks for sharing your work. Let me know if I can help more.


    Gurney Nutting RR Phantom II Faux Cabriolet
    Attached Images Attached Images Gurney Nutting RR Phantom II Faux Cabriolet-shpwysprtscrn-bmp 
    QUOTE QUOTE #43

  13. petert's Avatar Yearly Subscriber
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    Peter
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    Pocher
    Hi Again what's your name by the way, I 'm Peter
    The brass axial looks great, I may have a go at metal printing, I did consider having the spoked wheels for the Mercedes printed in Nickel but the cost for 6 of them was prohibitive. I have attached a couple photos of the front shocks I did, the ignition tube and the carburetted which was quite a challenge.
    I have read that the RR rear leaf springs arn't really up to the job, do you think printing them in brass would be an option, I know model motorcars Gurney Nutting RR Phantom II Faux Cabriolet do an etched set but it is a bit pricey. Next challenge is to draw and print a new illuminated instrument cluster I will let you know how this progresses.

    cheers

    Peter
    QUOTE QUOTE #44

  14. jrhaddock's Avatar Active Member
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    Hi Peter, I'm John.
    Looks like you're in very good shape on the shocks.
    With respect to wire wheels, I used 3D printed hubs and rims for my Austin Seven and then used piano wire (.025" dia) for the spokes. The hubs and rims has small lead holes in them (0.2mm dia) oriented in the proper direction. So it was a simple job to drill out the holes for the wires, align the hub and rim, insert the spokes and superglue all the wires in place. The finished wheels were/are very strong.
    The problem with 3D printing is that the minimum unsupported wire diameter is typically 1mm for metals. That's maybe too thick for 1:8 scale spokes. So why not use stiff nickel wire instead and just print the hubs and rims in polished nickel? Just a thought.
    As for the RR springs, I commented earlier in this thread (5-10-16) on using brass strip to create new springs. It's a relatively straightforward process to make them and, including the 3D printed clamps, the total cost was approximately $25 for two rear springs. The finished springs are much stiffer than the Pocher springs, but will still flex. And it's easy enough to 'set' them for the right height. I suspect that 3D printed metal springs would be way more expensive. I can provide more dimensional detail if that would help.
    In any event, good luck. I think folks will be interested in how things work out.


    Gurney Nutting RR Phantom II Faux Cabriolet
    QUOTE QUOTE #45

  15. petert's Avatar Yearly Subscriber
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    Peter
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    Pocher
    Hi John, me again! promise I won't become a nuisance
    Would you be kind enough to let me have a copy of the leaf spring drawing and If I could scrounge the STL file of the clamps I think your way sounds an obvious solution.
    Cheers
    Peter
    QUOTE QUOTE #46

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