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    1. Kit: , by (Active Member) Sieben is offline
      Builder Last Online: Oct 2019 Show Printable Version Email this Page
      Model Scale: 1/8 Rating:  (1 votes - 5.00 average) Thanks: 1
      Started: 01-21-14 Build Revisions: Never  
      Not Supported Scratch Built Build in Progress

      Hi there!

      I'd desided to give some thoughts here for fabrication of car model pars out of the 3d surfaces that can be transferred to 2d cutting patterns by means of 3d software like Rhinoceros 4 and show some minor personal experiments with "English wheel", but basically something kinda of EW that i made from some junk and small ball bearing.

      Ok, first of all I've got to tell about the plugin for "Rhinoceros" that called "Squish" that perform unroll of the double curved surfaces into 2d patterns that can be lately formed in whatever.

      Rhino itself can be found in torrents....and the plugin to be downloaded here

      The 3d element goes well also too if modeled in another 3d application, let say 3DsMax, and then exported to Rhino and squished there. Like this trunk of Peugeot 403, that is known and become famous after TV series about Lt. Columbo.

      Using 3d software for fabrication of the 2d cutting patterns.-3ds-jpgUsing 3d software for fabrication of the 2d cutting patterns.-2-jpgUsing 3d software for fabrication of the 2d cutting patterns.-1-jpgUsing 3d software for fabrication of the 2d cutting patterns.-columbo-01-voiture-300x216-jpgUsing 3d software for fabrication of the 2d cutting patterns.-i114908-jpg

      The way the pluings are installed in Rhino is described for example here

      And then goes this:

      Using 3d software for fabrication of the 2d cutting patterns.-squish-jpgUsing 3d software for fabrication of the 2d cutting patterns.-squish2-jpgUsing 3d software for fabrication of the 2d cutting patterns.-squish3-jpg

      Click the surface, type "squish" in the command line, choose the settings for unroll, and that's it, you've got nice 2d cutting pattern, that can be exported to dxf or dwg e.t.c.

      Than hammering, and all the other stuff to make it look the way it should be. The method just like the way real car patterns can be worked out....

      So, Imanaged to get that, out of the scraped air freshener, and a formers, to align the trunk.


      Not the pretty ones, but for those experienced ones, I suppose it can be not a big deal to make everthing look smooth....


      Using 3d software for fabrication of the 2d cutting patterns.-p1040151-jpgUsing 3d software for fabrication of the 2d cutting patterns.-p1040152-jpg

      ....and also this. Porsche 911 wing, and kind off motorcycle wing. The last was the first experiment with the material, that was simply hammered on the iron former....

      Using 3d software for fabrication of the 2d cutting patterns.-p1040155-jpgUsing 3d software for fabrication of the 2d cutting patterns.-p1040153-jpgUsing 3d software for fabrication of the 2d cutting patterns.-p1040156-jpg


      And the smoother/stretcher with the hammer....

      Using 3d software for fabrication of the 2d cutting patterns.-p1040875-jpgUsing 3d software for fabrication of the 2d cutting patterns.-p1040874-jpgUsing 3d software for fabrication of the 2d cutting patterns.-p1040873-jpgUsing 3d software for fabrication of the 2d cutting patterns.-p1040872-jpgUsing 3d software for fabrication of the 2d cutting patterns.-p1040876-jpg


      I understand that conventional methods are maybe simpler and easier, when working on the wooden formers, but if this information can be helpful and bring smth new...that was all about... )
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  1. Sieben's Avatar Active Member
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    Sieben
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    One more thing to add.

    The formers, are also of coarse made in 3d like sections. The box around the chassis is required to there further alignment.

    Using 3d software for fabrication of the 2d cutting patterns.-124-jpgUsing 3d software for fabrication of the 2d cutting patterns.-123-jpg

    I don't know, actually, when working with brass, will someone need this, but whatever.... up to you.


    Using 3d software for fabrication of the 2d cutting patterns.
    Last edited by Sieben; 01-22-14 at 06:22 AM.
    QUOTE QUOTE #2

  2. Roger Zimmermann's Avatar Yearly Subscriber
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    As my working method is more or less like it was around 1800...I have difficulties to understand how you are getting the nice 3-d image. Are you first scanning a real car or, said differently, how are you getting the datas? It will be too late for my own project, but who knows, if I'm starting another one, I may change my way of building a model if the needed room for the equipment is manageable...
    QUOTE QUOTE #3

  3. Sieben's Avatar Active Member
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    Sieben
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    Roger, I get you point ).

    I'm new to all this kind of stuff with brass modeling techniques, and also thats clear that you gonna make wooden master model first of all, and than forming the metal, but for me also thats a question, how does it performed, in terms of sawing, chopping and sanding Using 3d software for fabrication of the 2d cutting patterns. the right form, where you can get it from, all the same, an accurate data? Serious. Itll be nice if you will guide to some from a to z tutor. (RTFF I know, but )

    The rest is simple. With 3d its weather to make your own, or buy already made like that sells on Cars - 3d cars, 3d car models stock. Download car 3d models in 3ds, max, obj, c4d, fbx, dxf, dwg, skp, iges or similar, or make a request to make it for somebody, if you dont want to mess around with learning 3d soft, what is not really so much complicated as might seem, a couple of right tutorials and you can begin start working on smth and then you will know what you need while on process. The thing that you must start to makeand not so many operations you will need to get smth. (thats another story).

    [U]Or use already scanned, as they say, cars for some gaming[/U], like [U]Forza Motorsport[/U]. The are already ripped from game long ago, and lay in torrents Other source of vehicles like from [U]GTA SA/4[/U] also can give pretty cool stuff to work with.

    The accuracy of 3d model itself, depends on skills and experience of modeler certainly, if its not 3d scan. But I suppose, thats understood that we cannot talk about, more or less, about that scans that makes cool studios except those prepared for gaming or else. B.W. with Rhino you can use 3d scan that by means of some plugin reads glued marking points on object on photos and then you start make surface based on that marking points. Thats more for measurements purposes. Even if you will get object scanned, by means of cool scanner, youve got to remodel in order to get the clear surface, for unroll in our case for e.x.

    Modeling by means of nothing but blueprints, can be not so much preferable also in most of the cases, you instead generally use lots of photo references while modeling, and makes surfaces relying on photo modeling techniques. If so - no blueprints are required at all.

    Using 3d software for fabrication of the 2d cutting patterns.-99b23d19a855-pngUsing 3d software for fabrication of the 2d cutting patterns.-cc05ddb586d3-png


    With this, I suppose its just all about that you should not shape the wooden master model and can use only sections instead, and then use metal shaping techniques applicable for full scale cars.thats what maybe all actually about, the sense of forming sheet metal exactly as in full scale.

    But guess if only working with aluminum or tin from somewhere, as it planed to use ..cause brass seems to be too soft, because of 2 small but in such case Youll need English wheel, and also preferably a bead roller, (with shrinker?) .and they should be scaled. )

    Its gonna be a weired thing, but for now it seems that to chop the right and symmetrical peace of wooden master, is not an easer task either.

    Also in few words, actually, Im in paper model designing, basically (can check personal site Архив материалов - Paperdesigners if you want) but working on one Porsche model, (906) get bored with all that putty sanding, then started with 911, and after some small assembly testing...

    Using 3d software for fabrication of the 2d cutting patterns.-51fa167a48d6-jpgUsing 3d software for fabrication of the 2d cutting patterns.-39a53116b235-jpgUsing 3d software for fabrication of the 2d cutting patterns.-486c3e5b0b19-1-jpgUsing 3d software for fabrication of the 2d cutting patterns.-dc69e2d3d3ea-jpg

    ...understand that it is really so much annoying trying get that shapes smooth e.t.c. and the appearance of the model itself, even thou someone can get very nice results in it.

    Model was ripped from game then unfolded and glued.

    Using 3d software for fabrication of the 2d cutting patterns.-216317019-jpgUsing 3d software for fabrication of the 2d cutting patterns.-215826979-jpg


    Exactly at this time get stuck and impressed by full scale metal forming techniques. And decided to give a try to some experiments. (Now working on better kind of EW.)

    Bay the way, the rear wing of even 911s (934) get squished very easily in Rhino and seems to be quite right, so lately to be used in 3d surface unroll too. or to get shapers at least.

    Using 3d software for fabrication of the 2d cutting patterns.-2-jpgUsing 3d software for fabrication of the 2d cutting patterns.-2-2-jpg Using 3d software for fabrication of the 2d cutting patterns.-wing-jpg


    Also, get find this for some info. They also use 3ds..)

    Station Bucks


    Using 3d software for fabrication of the 2d cutting patterns.
    Last edited by Sieben; 01-31-14 at 05:37 PM.
    QUOTE QUOTE #4

  4. Roger Zimmermann's Avatar Yearly Subscriber
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    Thank you Sieben for that complete explanation.Still like chinese to me, because I'm still seeing modeling as an hobby which can be done in a small room with a basic equipement. Somebody gave me the idea to let scan the model I'm building but, as I don't own myself the car, I did not pursue that way.
    Fortunately, the car I'm doing is not in the available model from your first link! The last link, Station Bucks is very interesting and certainely open the door for oportunities to repair rare cars.
    QUOTE QUOTE #5

  5. Sieben's Avatar Active Member
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    Sieben
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    Ok. If talking of EW's, here is some sort of that "a better kind of EW".
    (The one that I managed to squeeze out of the prevoius one, and assembled from smth that can be found in a toolbox...)

    The aim was so that it could cope with 1:25 scales.

    Using 3d software for fabrication of the 2d cutting patterns.-p1040918-jpgUsing 3d software for fabrication of the 2d cutting patterns.-jpgUsing 3d software for fabrication of the 2d cutting patterns.-p1040921-jpgUsing 3d software for fabrication of the 2d cutting patterns.-p1040924-jpgUsing 3d software for fabrication of the 2d cutting patterns.-p1040925-jpgUsing 3d software for fabrication of the 2d cutting patterns.-p1040929-jpgUsing 3d software for fabrication of the 2d cutting patterns.-p1040928-jpgUsing 3d software for fabrication of the 2d cutting patterns.-p1040926-jpgUsing 3d software for fabrication of the 2d cutting patterns.-p1040939-jpgUsing 3d software for fabrication of the 2d cutting patterns.-p1040941-jpg


    The lower anvils set is "mashined" from the nut with dremel Using 3d software for fabrication of the 2d cutting patterns. and a flat file.
    Using 3d software for fabrication of the 2d cutting patterns.-jpg
    Talked with turner, to make a set of anvils, but decided to give a try with this one at first.

    This stuff is an example how bigger lower anvils can be adjusted.

    Using 3d software for fabrication of the 2d cutting patterns.-p1040936-jpg

    Using 3d software for fabrication of the 2d cutting patterns.-p1040935-jpg
    Using 3d software for fabrication of the 2d cutting patterns.-3d-jpg


    I'm making some sort of manual on how to opperate 3Dmax, ( in this thread: *абота с 3DMax и другими программами..... - Форум, бумажные модели, как сделать макеты из бумаги и картона своими руками that you can start building your own models quickly. Can not promice to make a translation of it, but maybe will prep some tutor on how to make formers for the "buck", based on the 3d model.

    B.W. Good resource to find out models from racing games.
    Коллекция 3D моделей - GameModels Community


    Using 3d software for fabrication of the 2d cutting patterns.
    Last edited by Sieben; 02-14-14 at 01:34 PM.
    QUOTE QUOTE #6

  6. Roger Zimmermann's Avatar Yearly Subscriber
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    Interesting tool! Probably not very stable, but the idea is interesting and can probably be improved.
    QUOTE QUOTE #7

  7. Sieben's Avatar Active Member
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    Sieben
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    Yop! For sure.) Thanks Roger.

    Yeah,I tried. If welded, and from still, will be no problem at all. The alu corners, rises a bit sometime even thou it has a rod for keep'em together. The lower part, if struck, can swing aside, but generally, even in such configuration it can operate quite well and smooth the metal.

    And talking about the rise of the upper wheel, I saw with Ron Covell, and his EW techniques, so his EW also gives a rise too, so must be not big deal then ).


    Using 3d software for fabrication of the 2d cutting patterns.
    Last edited by Sieben; 02-14-14 at 11:15 AM.
    QUOTE QUOTE #8

  8. Sieben's Avatar Active Member
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    Sieben
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    And some progress with Peugeot bonnet....

    Using 3d software for fabrication of the 2d cutting patterns.-9901847-jpgUsing 3d software for fabrication of the 2d cutting patterns.-1446786-jpgUsing 3d software for fabrication of the 2d cutting patterns.-0295116-jpgUsing 3d software for fabrication of the 2d cutting patterns.-8264694-jpg

    And front left wing:

    Using 3d software for fabrication of the 2d cutting patterns.-3651872-jpgUsing 3d software for fabrication of the 2d cutting patterns.-4291352-jpgUsing 3d software for fabrication of the 2d cutting patterns.-2201908-jpgUsing 3d software for fabrication of the 2d cutting patterns.-9070829-jpgUsing 3d software for fabrication of the 2d cutting patterns.-5273258-jpgUsing 3d software for fabrication of the 2d cutting patterns.-8351990-jpgUsing 3d software for fabrication of the 2d cutting patterns.-7003223-jpgUsing 3d software for fabrication of the 2d cutting patterns.-9909936-jpg

    The wing actually is formed even with not so much wheeling, just few passes to smooth some hits from hammer. All the hammering was done on the modeling carpet, and was hit also from the inside to smooth it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sieben View Post
    maybe will prep some tutor on how to make formers for the "buck", based on the 3d model.
    Remember, remember...


    Using 3d software for fabrication of the 2d cutting patterns.
    Attached Images Attached Images Using 3d software for fabrication of the 2d cutting patterns.-5369707-jpg 
    Last edited by Sieben; 03-13-14 at 02:24 AM.
    QUOTE QUOTE #9

  9. Roger Zimmermann's Avatar Yearly Subscriber
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    The hood is really good looking!
    As I still have to do the hood and fenders from my own project, I may take some idea from you....
    QUOTE QUOTE #10

  10. gigglingmonkey's Avatar Active Member
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    Mick
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    An intriguing post, I'll have to read it a few more times to get a clear understanding (the translation from russian isn't as grammaticaly as precise as I would like).

    The english wheel is a bit Heath Robinson Rube Goldberg machine - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia but relatively easily refined.

    I've been thinking about making a pan-brake at 1:8 scale

    mik
    don't follow me, I'm making it up as I go
    QUOTE QUOTE #11

  11. BrassBuilder's Avatar Yearly Subscriber
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    Informative post. I like the english wheel. With a bit more refinement, I think it would be an excellent miniature English wheel.
    Mike
    My website:
    http://www.firesteelhobbies.com/index.html

    Feel free to look around. I have all of my projects on the website.
    QUOTE QUOTE #12

  12. Sieben's Avatar Active Member
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    Sieben
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    .... by the way.

    The thing about digitizing real objects by means of Rhinosceros and a camera. The so called "Rhino's scan" I was talking about.

    Photogrammetry plugin for Rhino

    Rhinophoto V2.0 training

    Cool thing.


    Using 3d software for fabrication of the 2d cutting patterns.
    QUOTE QUOTE #13

  13. MargaritisJB's Avatar Member
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    Margaritis
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sieben View Post
    Roger, I get you point ).



    I'm new to all this kind of stuff with brass modeling techniques, and also thats clear that you gonna make wooden master model first of all, and than forming the metal, but for me also thats a question, how does it performed, in terms of sawing, chopping and sanding the right form, where you can get it from, all the same, an accurate data? Serious. Itll be nice if you will guide to some from a to z tutor. (RTFF I know, but )

    The rest is simple. With 3d its weather to make your own, or buy already made like that sells on Cars - 3d cars, 3d car models stock. Download car 3d models in 3ds, max, obj, c4d, fbx, dxf, dwg, skp, iges or similar, or make a request to make it for somebody, if you dont want to mess around with learning 3d soft, what is not really so much complicated as might seem, a couple of right tutorials and you can begin start working on smth and then you will know what you need while on process. The thing that you must start to makeand not so many operations you will need to get smth. (thats another story).

    [U]Or use already scanned, as they say, cars for some gaming[/U], like [U]Forza Motorsport[/U]. The are already ripped from game long ago, and lay in torrents Other source of vehicles like from [U]GTA SA/4[/U] also can give pretty cool stuff to work with.

    The accuracy of 3d model itself, depends on skills and experience of modeler certainly, if its not 3d scan. But I suppose, thats understood that we cannot talk about, more or less, about that scans that makes cool studios except those prepared for gaming or else. B.W. with Rhino you can use 3d scan that by means of some plugin reads glued marking points on object on photos and then you start make surface based on that marking points. Thats more for measurements purposes. Even if you will get object scanned, by means of cool scanner, youve got to remodel in order to get the clear surface, for unroll in our case for e.x.

    Modeling by means of nothing but blueprints, can be not so much preferable also in most of the cases, you instead generally use lots of photo references while modeling, and makes surfaces relying on photo modeling techniques. If so - no blueprints are required at all.

    Using 3d software for fabrication of the 2d cutting patterns.-99b23d19a855-pngUsing 3d software for fabrication of the 2d cutting patterns.-cc05ddb586d3-png


    With this, I suppose its just all about that you should not shape the wooden master model and can use only sections instead, and then use metal shaping techniques applicable for full scale cars.thats what maybe all actually about, the sense of forming sheet metal exactly as in full scale.

    But guess if only working with aluminum or tin from somewhere, as it planed to use ..cause brass seems to be too soft, because of 2 small but in such case Youll need English wheel, and also preferably a bead roller, (with shrinker?) .and they should be scaled. )

    Its gonna be a weired thing, but for now it seems that to chop the right and symmetrical peace of wooden master, is not an easer task either.

    Also in few words, actually, Im in paper model designing, basically (can check personal site Архив материалов - Paperdesigners if you want) but working on one Porsche model, (906) get bored with all that putty sanding, then started with 911, and after some small assembly testing...

    Using 3d software for fabrication of the 2d cutting patterns.-51fa167a48d6-jpgUsing 3d software for fabrication of the 2d cutting patterns.-39a53116b235-jpgUsing 3d software for fabrication of the 2d cutting patterns.-486c3e5b0b19-1-jpgUsing 3d software for fabrication of the 2d cutting patterns.-dc69e2d3d3ea-jpg

    ...understand that it is really so much annoying trying get that shapes smooth e.t.c. and the appearance of the model itself, even thou someone can get very nice results in it.

    Model was ripped from game then unfolded and glued.

    Using 3d software for fabrication of the 2d cutting patterns.-216317019-jpgUsing 3d software for fabrication of the 2d cutting patterns.-215826979-jpg


    Exactly at this time get stuck and impressed by full scale metal forming techniques. And decided to give a try to some experiments. (Now working on better kind of EW.)

    Bay the way, the rear wing of even 911s (934) get squished very easily in Rhino and seems to be quite right, so lately to be used in 3d surface unroll too. or to get shapers at least.

    Using 3d software for fabrication of the 2d cutting patterns.-2-jpgUsing 3d software for fabrication of the 2d cutting patterns.-2-2-jpg Using 3d software for fabrication of the 2d cutting patterns.-wing-jpg


    Also, get find this for some info. They also use 3ds..)

    Station Bucks
    That looks very interesting. You see, I want to make a 3D model of a car which it is kind rare and there are no blueprints for it. I have many pictures of this car, and I have amost the same views as you have this car with the marks on it. Can you make me an explanation on which program to us, how to add pictures and then mark them? Photogrammetry seems to be a plugin that you need to take photos of something that you have access to it and then add it on rhino. Can you make a pictorial? :)
    QUOTE QUOTE #14

  14. MargaritisJB's Avatar Member
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    Margaritis
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    That looks very interesting. You see, I want to make a 3D model of a car which it is kind rare and there are no blueprints for it. I have many pictures of this car, and I have amost the same views as you have this car with the marks on it. Can you make me an explanation on which program to us, how to add pictures and then mark them? Photogrammetry seems to be a plugin that you need to take photos of something that you have access to it and then add it on rhino.Can you make a pictorial or a video to explain us how to do that? Thank you very much! :)
    QUOTE QUOTE #15

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