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GusSMHDV
11-10-12, 10:55 AM
This thread is being posted at Ken's (very kind1hey1) urging. It's being done ONLY to illustrate what happens when two builders use the same set of plans to build the same vehicle...or, at least, what CAN happen. Even with the plans and measurements in front of the builder there is great room for interpretation. This is not a bad thing and, in fact, is exactly what happened back in the 'good ol' days' with the builders of the original 1:1's. They might be seperated by as little as the distance from one town to the next and still have significant differences between what 'should' be identical vehicles. As time goes by I'll attempt to attach a few photo's of things that are different between the two models...but only to illustrate how the same process was approached from two angles.

The first difference is that Ken built at 1:12...and mine is at 1:8. At 1:8 my 'little bitties" are WAYYYYY bigger than his...and much easier to handle. If I wanted to find a way to go completely crazy why I'd just build at 1:12he1hehe1he

At 1:8 I was able to use street sweeper brush for the tyres as it's almost exactly in scale. It's actually spring steel but anneals quite nicely for soldering (or drilling). Another immediate marked difference is choice of materials as I used brass and American Black Walnut. This immediately took the model out of 'museum quality build'...but I rather like the look of brass and walnut together..so that's the way it got builtgringrin

More to follow....sometime...............


Cheers - Gus1gramps1

22661

xken
11-10-12, 01:01 PM
Gus,

Glad to see you posted it looks a great as ever! Now you need to dig back and come up with more of your construction steps. I know there are some of the builders here that would benefit from seeing the wood work.1thumbup1

Ken 1gramps1

Don Garrett
11-10-12, 01:18 PM
Absolutely....I for one would love to see more.
This wood working and brass construction may be old hat to some but for the majority of us it's something that we'd like to attempt but have perhaps felt we were lacking the basic skills or knowledge base.

Personally, I'm on-site just about every day and one of the first stops I make is this section......eagerly soaking up info to get up enough nerve to dive into a project like this.

Thanks guys....1thumbup1

GusSMHDV
11-12-12, 02:28 PM
Here's a little bit on wheel construction. I do hope Ken posts the process he used for his as a comparison on the methods will be quite educational. I should note that the actual plans were a bit ambiguous. They actually called for 'rock elm' naves (hubs). I just jumped right at that and made my naves out of wood. Wrong! Plain wood naves would simply fall apart after little use unless they hade supporting rings/bands installed. These rings/bands do not appear on the plans (nave blow-up diagram) at all. The plans also called for 'staggered' spokes. (staggered spokes are offset on the nave to provide two rows of spokes on the nave - this provides for a much stronger 'triangle' type construction as the spokes are eventually joined in a single line on the felloes (rim)
this will allow a wheel to survive considerably longer on rough terrain.

Making the felloes (rims)

I chose to make mine the traditional (in real life) way by steam bending. It turned out that American Black Walnut will do this1thumbup1....many other woods won't1no1 and simply de-laminate during the process. Here is the stock being set for steaming. About 20 minutes seemed to work pretty good. Actually, one should make more than needed. Sometimes one will de-lamiate and having extra's allows for the rest of the family not to hear bad language.1wthe1

http://www.scalemotorcars.com/forum/images/imported/2012/11/29.jpg (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v439/rennugliat/wheel%20construction/P1010003-27.jpg)

A proper size mandrel is needed...in this case a chunk of brass pipe I had.......and some
screw type hose clamps. The steamed wood is actually wide enough for two felloe sections. You'll see that later. The reason is because a single-width piece of wood is VERY awkward to work with. I pre-set them into the hose clamp..
http://www.scalemotorcars.com/forum/images/imported/2012/11/31.jpg (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v439/rennugliat/wheel%20construction/P1010004-29.jpg)

and then slide them over the mandrel and tighten them.

http://www.scalemotorcars.com/forum/images/imported/2012/11/32.jpg (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v439/rennugliat/wheel%20construction/P1010005-4.jpg)
THEN...the whole works goes back into the pot for another 20 minutes of steaming....because it worked better and gave a better result than if I didn't do a 2nd steaming.

http://www.scalemotorcars.com/forum/images/imported/2012/11/33.jpg (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v439/rennugliat/wheel%20construction/P1010006-22.jpg)
The whole thing is removed from the pot and then allowed to sit for two or three days to dry. Then each double-felloe section is removed from the mandrel and split into two sections to form the two felloes needed to make a complete wheel.

http://www.scalemotorcars.com/forum/images/imported/2012/11/34.jpg (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v439/rennugliat/wheel%20construction/P1010007-1.jpg)

The fellow sections are now placed on a drawing of the wheel to be sized to near-approximate size....without going too small. Too large is OK...too small is going to be a problem....be careful1what1

http://www.scalemotorcars.com/forum/images/imported/2012/11/35.jpg (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v439/rennugliat/wheel%20construction/P1010008-19.jpg)

This is now the point where one decides on how the wheel is to be constructed. I like to build my wheels without glue......so they can be taken apart for repair/adjustment if required. NOTE - some builders use glue - not a problemgringrin....there are no 'rules' to this hobby except one...if it 'looks' right then you're good to go.

Some builders drill holes completely through the felloes and the spokes fit inside...some use a 'dowel' method where the end of the spoke has a smaller diameter dowel installed into a drilled hole and this dowel is placed into a corresponding hole in the felloe...some just make sure the ends of the spoke fit tigtly against the inner surface of the felloes and glue in place.

Mine use a 'blind' hole drilled half way through the felloe and the end of the spoke will 'click' into place. Drilling the holes...I mark the position of the hole on the felloe and then use a small vise as guide (clamped to the table) and a depth marker as to not drill too deep. The photo's are a bit terrible but I'm sure you get the idea. They are also for a whole different set of wheels - but they were the only photo's I had of the process
http://www.scalemotorcars.com/forum/images/imported/2012/11/36.jpg (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v439/rennugliat/wheel%20construction/P1010010-22.jpg)

http://www.scalemotorcars.com/forum/images/imported/2012/11/37.jpg (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v439/rennugliat/wheel%20construction/P1010011-14.jpg)


then the spokes are placed into the nave (hub) and ground to exact length...the felloes are snapped into place....and.......voila!!!

http://www.scalemotorcars.com/forum/images/imported/2012/11/38.jpg (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v439/rennugliat/wheel%20construction/P1010003-28.jpg)


http://www.scalemotorcars.com/forum/images/imported/2012/11/39.jpg (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v439/rennugliat/wheel%20construction/P1010004-31.jpg)


This photo is of a different wheel (metal/Sarven type nave) but gives a general idea of the constituent parts and how they can go together. The whole works is held together by the tyre. Just slip it off and the wheel can be taken apart.


Onto the nave and spokes in the near future....

Cheers - Gusgringrin

xken
11-13-12, 07:36 AM
Gus,

How can I or someone more knowledge than myself help you post your images? I load mine right from my computer directly into the reply (posting box) using the "from computer" option, go into the browser on my computer and open the file where the images are and select one image and then double click and it is uploaded, then I repeat to select another and repeat up to six images.

They appear in the posting box as you upload in a row next to each other.

Then after the last image on the right looking at the screen, click the cursor on the right of the image (black vertical line; once there click the left arrow once and the cursor will jump to the left of that image; then click enter and the image will move below the others.

Repeat until they are all stacked. Then click the cursor to the right of the top image and hit enter and type and text you wish.

Then repeat for the rest of the images.

Now can someone else describe how to do it from a hosting site using the URL option. We need to see Gus's images they are great.

Ken 1gramps1

Don Garrett
11-13-12, 08:20 AM
I usually upload my photos to Photobucket simply because they can be kept in "titled" albums. That way I can easily go there to retrieve a photo if I desire to post it elsewhere.
As far as posting them here...I copy & paste the [IMG] in my text where I want the photo to be displayed.
Photobucket provides me with the [IMG], http: codes etc.
I'm not saying that's the best way to do it, it's simply the method I use.

GusSMHDV
11-13-12, 10:04 AM
I have absolutely no idea what happened here. I do my photo's exactly like Don does and have never had a problem posting them. I rarely keep any photo's on my computer for the same reasons Don stated. Hmmmm...what to do? I was doing some clean-up on photobucket yesterday and moved a bunch of photo's to new albums...I'll bet that I did that after my posting and moving the phto's broke the link. I'll go back and see if I can re-post them.

Edit - very strange1what1 Two of the photo's showed up and the others didn't...well, they did when I previewed but they're gone again. I'll try again but something very strange is going on.

Edit again - when I clicked on the red 'X' to delete it to re-insert ....the picture showed up. I'm going to leave this for a while and see if photobucket can catch up to this site...or the other way around....or...I have no idea what I'm trying to do...which is more exactly what is going on.

Don Garrett
11-13-12, 11:58 AM
Gus, Photobucket has changed their format, I'm still adjusting to the new set-up myself.....they say it's more efficient etc. but they didn't check with me before the change, LOL.
Anyway, I'll take a peek at your posts from the admin. panel, perhaps I'll be able to spot the fly in the ointment.

Don Garrett
11-13-12, 12:11 PM
Okay Gus, at the bottom of your post click on "Edit Post".
You'll see a panel with a tool bar at the top.
You can click that first little box to toggle back and forth between the codes and an image with the pics.

Based on what I'm seeing.....your codes are mixed between [IMG] & http:s it looks to me as if somewhere along the line there's a glitch in the photobucket message from them to here?

Don Garrett
11-13-12, 12:18 PM
I would suggest that you go back to photobucket & drag the [IMG] code back to your post, edit out the mixed codes & paste the proper one back in.

wagnmkr
11-13-12, 01:12 PM
On your photobucket page, sort of top, right hand side, there is a line ... small, blue print ... go back to old version. If you hit that button, you can still use the older version ... for now.

Cheers,

Tom

Don Garrett
11-13-12, 01:14 PM
Thanks Tom, was not aware of that. 1thumbup1

wagnmkr
11-13-12, 01:19 PM
You are welcome Don ... just passin on what someone passed to me.

Cheers,

Tom

GusSMHDV
11-13-12, 01:49 PM
Okay Gus, at the bottom of your post click on "Edit Post".
You'll see a panel with a tool bar at the top.
You can click that first little box to toggle back and forth between the codes and an image with the pics.

Based on what I'm seeing.....your codes are mixed between [IMG] & http:s it looks to me as if somewhere along the line there's a glitch in the photobucket message from them to here?

Just for interest - I'm on the 'old' system at photobucket. Don - when the first photo's went away I went back into photobucket and posted the correct 'img' code for each photo back to the forum. I find it interesting that 2 of the photo's show up as thumbs and the rest as red X's. There is no doubt that this is a photobucket issue as I have changed nothing in the system and use the same process (and img codes) as I have for several years. I will try going to 'edit' as you suggested and play a bit with that. Otherwise, I'm at a complete loss.

GusSMHDV
11-13-12, 02:07 PM
I'm confused - this time I did exactly the same thing I did the last two times - but it worked this time..at least it has so far. We'll see if everything is still there in a couple of hours1mad1

GusSMHDV
11-13-12, 02:51 PM
OK - the pictures lasted about an hour...then they .........went away. I have no idea what is happening. As for going in and eidting out mixed codes................he1hehe1hehe1he.........Don, I'm lucky to be able to turn this machine on and get to a site. 'Edit codes'.........................he1hehe1hehe1he

I am going to send a message to photobucket...maybe they can throw some light one this.

Cheers - Gus

Edit to add---the two photo's that HAD lasted overnight are also now.....gone. I do have an emaill off to PB to see if they can get to the bottom of this.

xken
11-13-12, 06:27 PM
Gus, I am sorry to see you are having problems with Photobucket, I gave up on them a few years back for the same problems you are having now.

Hopefully you will get better support from them than I did. Keep at it we need your images.gringrin

Ken 1gramps1

GusSMHDV
11-13-12, 06:48 PM
Gus, I am sorry to see you are having problems with Photobucket, I gave up on them a few years back for the same problems you are having now.

Hopefully you will get better support from them than I did. Keep at it we need your images.gringrin

Ken 1gramps1

Thanks Ken - this is really annoying. I'm now awaiting a reply from PB on my "this isn't working" email to see what can be done. Has anybody ever tried moving photo's 'en bulk' from PB to another hosting service????

EDIT - OK - now trying again. PB got back to me (sort of) with an "auto-reply" that wanted me to get the latest Java and delete 'history'...and on...and on...and on...

An hour later I've got this done. Now the little pop-ups are no longer red 'X's..they are something else.?????

I'm going to try and insert the original photo's again and see what happens.

Later - Gus2thud2

Don Garrett
11-13-12, 08:19 PM
Gus, the only other thing I can think of is to ask what you are using for an OS.
I know there have been some compatibility issues in the past.
At any rate, hang in there, one way or another we'll get rid of the gremlins & get you back posting.

GusSMHDV
11-13-12, 08:27 PM
Gus, the only other thing I can think of is to ask what you are using for an OS.
I know there have been some compatibility issues in the past.
At any rate, hang in there, one way or another we'll get rid of the gremlins & get you back posting.

Thanks Don - this is really frustrating to have the problem show up when I'm doing everything exactly the same as always. I now see that with my last bit of work the photo's are now back up...here's hoping they stay there.

Cheers - Gus

wagnmkr
11-14-12, 06:45 AM
They are all still there this morning and looking good as well.

Cheers,

Tom

xken
11-14-12, 06:54 AM
Gus,

CONGRATULATIONS! It looks like you cracked the code. Great sequence on building the wheels keep them coming. This technique could also be used for steering wheels as well.

Keep up the great work!

Ken 1gramps1

Don Garrett
11-14-12, 09:48 AM
Happy days are here again...........
You "car only" guys should keep checking in on these horse drawn builds......many of the techniques being shown on these pages are easily adaptable to automotive coaches, woodies etc.

I was a little skeptical when Ken first approached me with his proposal for a horse drawn vehicle section in Scale Motorcars........
well, he was right. The only regret I have is that it wasn't done sooner.

GusSMHDV
11-14-12, 12:56 PM
On with the wheels

TRY CLICKING ON THE RED X'S FOLKS. FOR SOME REASON THE THUMB WON'T SHOW UP BUT IT SEEMS THAT YOU CAN GET TO THE PHOTO. I HAVE ANOTHER MESSAGE OFF TO PB TO ASK WHAT IS GOING ON.

The nave (hub) in this case was set up on my milling machine with a rotary table and a 1/16" bit. thus it was easy to make the pockets for the base of the spokes to sit in. You can use a piece of dowel - or cut your own dowel and use that. Or....make the nave out of metal should the plans call for it.

I know...you're now saying that you don't have a milling machine or a rotary table. Don't need one1no1. Many, many people build scratch wagons with an absolute minimum of tools. Some don't have lathes, or milling machines. It's a matter of thinking about what you want to accomplish and then devise a method for doing it...with what you've got. This nave could just as easily have had a small piece of paper wrapped around it with the locations for the spokes pre-marked...and then small holes (instead of oblong pockets) drilled. The end of the spoke could have the same size hole drilled - then a piece of toothpick ...or wire pushed in...and then that is placed in the nave. Remember - what I have described is only one way of making a wheel...it certainly isn't the "start and end all" of wheel making.

Back to the wheel.

This will give you the idea (and size) of the nave. This buggy type wheel is about as small as you'll get...unless you start to build in the 1:12 scale...that only highly insane people do (sorry Ken - couldn't resisthe1hehe1he)

This is also the point where I sneak in this: You were right Ken. Your Buckboard spokes are correct and mine aren't. The ARE, in fact, square at the top. I was going off the complete drawn wheel...and didn't know until yesterday that there was a blow-up of the spoke. I must of looked right at it a hundred times on the plans and never saw it.1confused1
[/URL]http://www.scalemotorcars.com/forum/images/imported/2012/11/47.jpg (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v439/rennugliat/wheel construction/P1010005.jpg)
So....the spoke is square for a short distance at the top and then tapers into an oblong (or sort of egg) shape. And yes...each spoke is made seperately and usually by hand. they can be filed into shape...or some folks use a bench belt sander...or set up each spoke blank in a lathe...or build a duplicator. What ever way you like to do it is correct.
http://www.scalemotorcars.com/forum/images/imported/2012/11/48.jpg (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v439/rennugliat/wheel%20construction/P1010004.jpg)

http://www.scalemotorcars.com/forum/images/imported/2012/11/49.jpg (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v439/rennugliat/wheel%20construction/P1010006.jpg)

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v439/rennugliat/wheel construction/P1010006.jpg)

Note here that any hole created in the nave must be at the same angle as the 'dish' on the wheel...and that corresponds to the identical angle that is built into the axle spindle.

Here is what the wheel should look like with the 'dish'
http://www.scalemotorcars.com/forum/images/imported/2012/11/50.jpg (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v439/rennugliat/wheel%20construction/P1010010-4.jpg)


Then, when the wheels are installed on the angled axle spindles it forces the spokes BELOW the axle the to sit at 90 degrees to the ground...and gives the wheels a 'splayed out' look at the top.

This one gives an idea of the angle that the spoke leaves the nave.
[URL="http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v439/rennugliat/wheel construction/P1010005.jpg"] (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v439/rennugliat/wheel construction/P1010010-4.jpg)http://www.scalemotorcars.com/forum/images/imported/2012/11/47.jpg (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v439/rennugliat/wheel%20construction/P1010005.jpg)

And the end result when the completed wheels are installed on the vehicle. And...the model really doesn't look that bad...the flash just seems to magnify...every2thud2thing...and I DID try to lighten the photo. Photobucket said it was lighter after the edit. Apparently PB forgot............1what1
http://www.scalemotorcars.com/forum/images/imported/2012/11/41.jpg (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v439/rennugliat/wheel construction/P1010008.jpg)

Different wagon - different wheels - but the idea is the same.
http://www.scalemotorcars.com/forum/images/imported/2012/11/42.jpg (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v439/rennugliat/wheel construction/P1010013.jpg)


And thus concludes this brief (and all over the place...and incomplete) description of building a buggy wheel. When I do another of this type of build I will document everything as it takes place and in order. That will be much clearer.gringrin

Cheeers - Gus

wagnmkr
11-14-12, 05:20 PM
Uhhhh ... Gus ..... Methinks PB might have lost some more of your pics ....

Cheers, Tom

RickyGene
11-14-12, 06:44 PM
Wow, enjoyed what you have posted.....much to learn........keep'em coming Gus......1clap1
Rick1gramps1

xken
11-15-12, 07:38 AM
Gus,

I think I have the same geometry set shown in the background that I got in high school. Today's kids have no idea what they are or how to use them. I use my dividers a great deal for getting measurements where the calipers will not fit on model parts.

Old school tools still work! 1thumbup1

Ken 1gramps1

GusSMHDV
11-15-12, 10:49 AM
Absolutely right Kengringrin Mine's an old K&E that I've now had for.......(oh, wow...never thought of this before) wayyyyyyyy over 40 years...and it's still complete1wthe1

I do enjoy using it now and then for stuff I want to play with and 'get at right now' but I actually do have an AutoDesk/AutoCad I use for most things now (just so everyone doesn't think I'm an old 'fuddy'.......)1yeah1

xken
11-15-12, 06:23 PM
AutoDesk/AutoCad I use for most things now (just so everyone doesn't think I'm an old 'fuddy'.......)

This old fuddy is teaching himself CorelCAD and I will be 66 in February. You are ahead of me. he1he

Ken 1gramps1

wagnmkr
11-15-12, 08:36 PM
Ken, don't feel bad ... I am the same age as you ... most of time I can't find my socks, but I am also trying to learn cad.

Gus, did you do those slots in the knaves on your mill?

Cheers,

Tom

5thwheel
10-12-13, 11:04 AM
Gus,
Great tutorial on the wheels. It has been almost year since your last posting. I want to see more of your HDV work. How about posting your spring wagon here? That was a very nice build.

Bill

Auréance
02-22-14, 03:38 PM
Y like it, so good! wonderful, fantastic.

English:To GusSMHDV
I've seen you on another forum (I think) that the "http://forum.scalemodelhorsedrawnvehicle.co.uk" but you continue, you continue to publish photos like tiny postage stamps. Do not you see that everyone on "Scalemotorcars.com" endeavors to provide the best shots?
Join the family of "flikr.com" you earn 1 free gigabyte to store your photos for free and you can put them in high resolution. nothing prevents you to optimize your images via free before storing on "Flikr" software. You will spend 5 or 6 million to 1/2 or 1 billion images.
FREE!
Then this forum "Scalemotorcars.com" we all can finally see your work in good conditions


__________________________________________________ _______________________

French : à GusSMHDV (http://www.scalemotorcars.com/forum/members/gussmhdv.html)
Je vous ai déjà vu sur un autre forum (je crois) celui du «http://forum.scalemodelhorsedrawnvehicle.co.uk (http://forum.scalemodelhorsedrawnvehicle.co.uk/)» mais vous continuez, vous persistez à publier des photos minuscules comme des timbres postaux. Ne voyez vous pas que chacun sur «Scalemotorcars.com» s’applique à fournir les meilleurs clichés ?
Rejoignez la grande famille de «flikr.com» vous gagnerez 1 giga-octet gratuit pour stocker vos photos gratuitement et vous pourrez ainsi les mettre en haute résolution. rien ne vous empêche de d’optimiser vos images via un logiciel gratuit avant de stocker sur «Flikr». Vous passerez de 5 ou 6 millions à 1/2 ou 1 milliard d’images.
GRATUIT !
Ensuite sur ce forum «Scalemotorcars.com» nous pourrons tous enfin voir votre travail en de bonnes conditions